Can someone please explain line length effect?

> 10 years ago
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PassingWind
PassingWind
QLD
154 posts
QLD, 154 posts
21 Nov 2011 12:54am
So im wondering why line extensions help lightwind kites? and make high wind kiters faster. Something to do with the fulcrum, but why more low end?

I have theories about where the wind is, altitude etc. But rather than me having to sort out my own thoughts and theories can someone spoon feed me please :)

Cheers Big ears. Dave.
Bigwavedave
Bigwavedave
QLD
2057 posts
QLD, 2057 posts
21 Nov 2011 1:44am
Bigger diameter wind window. Kite spends more time in the power zone.

That's just a couple of things

There's more.....
surfingboye
surfingboye
NSW
2707 posts
NSW, 2707 posts
21 Nov 2011 8:42am
Welcome back Bigwavedave. Couldn't stay off the forums, addictions are hard to break huh?

Bigwavedave
Bigwavedave
QLD
2057 posts
QLD, 2057 posts
21 Nov 2011 8:59am
Read my post! I don't leave until Thursday.

3 days to go...

Original question about line length.


kite speed = power

imagine the window is like a bike wheel. The bigger the diameter the fasted the rim must travel to complete a revolution.

For a kite to traverse the window it travels a greater distance on longer lines and must travel faster to get through 180 degrees.

Therefore extra speed means extra power.

AKSonline
AKSonline
WA
925 posts
WA, 925 posts
21 Nov 2011 9:34am
Hi Guys and BWD,

Line length can change the performance of your kite by either changing power or changing upwind ability.

Short lines (20m) reduces the wind window radius by 20%. The circumference of the radii is also shortened making the effective distance from one side of the wind window to the other a shorter distance. This means the kite traveling at the same speed as in a larger wind window will take less time to get across the window thus staying in the power area for a shorter period of time. The time the kite spends at higher angles of attack is also decreased this reduces the power and makes it quicker to get to neutral.

Longer lines (30+m) increases the distance the kite travels from one side of the window to the other so it stays in the power area longer which does not increase the power, but does increase the amount of time the kite is producing the power whilst diving the kite. The effect is that the kite seemingly has more power by staying at higher angles of attack for slightly longer.

The lesser known fact is the effect of increase and decrease of drag made by the lines. If you imagine the lines at the kite end (of the bar/lines/kite combo), are all being pulled through the wind at a perpendicular angle and are thus producing a reasonably significant amount of drag of downwind pull.

In a long line scenario, this drag prevents the kite from reaching its lowest angle or closest position to the edge of the wind window. In other words the added line length (consider adding 10m extensions) you would effectively be adding 40 metres of perpendicular line drag out beyond the normal kite position. This drops the kite back and makes it sit deeper in the wind window. This makes the kite produce more power than at previous neutral position, as it is held at a higher angle of attack and never gets all the way to where it would normally sit in neutral. The negative of this is you lose upwind ability and tend to fight the kite to go upwind. Further but less significant is the reduced kite speed from the drag, so although you lose kite speed you gain in angle of attack duration.

With shorter lines (20m) the reduced drag from losing 20m of line at the kite end of the bar/lines/kite combo, makes the kite faster and sit higher in the wind window. The kite will require more wind but be much more responsive and zippier.

Final word on long lines is you can go too far. More than about 40m lines becomes pointless for two reasons, the kite sits far too deep in the window and what gains you make in power you lose in upwind advantage and you'll spend the whole time edging the kite to go upwind and wash of speed, thus cancelling out any apparent wind speed gains. Longer lines beyond 40m (steering lines specifically) also create so much drag that they create long slack curves in the distance between the kite and bar and start to work like dampeners in the steering. In laymans terms, your steering gets all slow and spongey and can get to the point of not working at all.

Some kites respond better than others to longer or shorter lines and much of this depends on their profile and amount of inherent drag in their design. SOme kites may get very prone to stall if they sit deep in the wind window to begin with, and others that sit high upwind, may become less stable and more prone to luffing.

You should have a play around with lines, you can learn a lot and even reduce your quiver if you have two bars of different line lengths running on the same kite. I used to run 20m and 30m a long time ago and the difference is amazing.

DM (Sorry for the long winded explanation, I wasn't going to bother, but then thought, OWTF)
Poida
Poida
WA
1922 posts
WA, 1922 posts
21 Nov 2011 10:48am
thanks for the details Darren,
in practical terms what would the benefit be of say 3-5m shorter lines than standard and going up one kite size for the surf style with a SLE/hybrid kite? would this help aerials or just make the kite more responsive/faster.
GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
21 Nov 2011 2:39pm
^^^ +1

As is (almost! ) always the case, what DM said.
AKSonline
AKSonline
WA
925 posts
WA, 925 posts
21 Nov 2011 11:58am
Poida said...

thanks for the details Darren,
in practical terms what would the benefit be of say 3-5m shorter lines than standard and going up one kite size for the surf style with a SLE/hybrid kite? would this help aerials or just make the kite more responsive/faster.


Hi Peter,

Shortening the lines by 3m will make little difference to the power, it may be more noticeable in terms of steering responsiveness and speed across the wind window. It will help in regard to aerials as this is more to do with speed and positioning of the kite as you approach the lip.

A 5m length decrease will be more noticeable with both power and responsiveness. A 10m difference in line length makes a very noticeable difference in both power and response. I'd guess and say that +/- 5m lines equals about a 1 sqm difference in kite size. A 10m line length difference will equate to about a 2m difference in kite size.

A thing to note would be that if you are riding a 22-25m line set currently, if you are dropping down in length, I wouldn't go much shorter than 5m less than standard as they can become very difficult and very on and off powerwise and difficult to keep a nice smooth power delivery. Going longer than standard (22-25) can be done in 5m or 10m increases. Light wind advantage is better to go 10m increase. Better to work out the length change in terms of percentage. ie, shortening a 20m lineset by 10m is 50% shorter, adding 10m to 20m is a 33% increase.

Going up one size (1m) in kite and down 5m in line length will make the bigger kite similar in feel to the smaller kite so probably not a lot of gain. Again, it depends a lot on the kites characteristics and how you use it.

DM




Bigwavedave
Bigwavedave
QLD
2057 posts
QLD, 2057 posts
21 Nov 2011 3:23pm
You have too much time on your hands DM!!

See ya in 2013!!
AKSonline
AKSonline
WA
925 posts
WA, 925 posts
21 Nov 2011 1:41pm
Bigwavedave said...

You have too much time on your hands DM!!

See ya in 2013!!


Hey Dave,

I make time for the kite community

DM
PassingWind
PassingWind
QLD
154 posts
QLD, 154 posts
21 Nov 2011 4:02pm
Thanks DM.

Appreciate your thorough explanation.

Exactly what I wanted.


Smart fellow.

Good winds.
Dave.
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