Kite stalls, falls into water trailing edge first

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mikeatcal
mikeatcal
QLD
6 posts
QLD, 6 posts
1 Mar 2009 1:11am
So the last few times I have been out on the water my day was ended by my kite stalling in mid air and then falling into the water trailing edge first. I will admit that most of the time this happens it is a light wind day (10-14 knots) but I don’t think that’s the only reason this is happening. In general this tends to happen just after a water start. For example I dive the kite left, 9 o’clock, to get myself out of the water and once I am up on my board I steer the kite back up to the right 11 o’clock to try and build up the speed I need stay on a plane. Instead of smoothly turning right and moving back up towards 11 the kite pretty much stays where it is as it slowly rotates in the sky until the leading edge is pointing strait up into the sky, at that point the kite loses all power and starts to drop out of the sky trailing edge down. Helplessly the kite drops into the water trailing edge first and I am stuck untangling my lines for the next 20-30 mins. What am I doing wrong? I almost feel like I am steering the kite too far to the right when I am trying to get it back up to 11 after the initial dive of my water start but it seems if I don’t I will sink back into the water due to a lack of speed. My kite is a 10.5 meter Cult 2009, board is a North X-Ride 135, and I am about 65 kilos. Any help would be much appreciated.
Abesy
Abesy
WA
266 posts
WA, 266 posts
1 Mar 2009 1:48am
its called backstalling and it just means u have to pull in more depower to increase the length of ur rear lines or put ur rear lines on the furthurest not from ur kite..... happens to all kooks in light wind on all types of kites
manicskier
manicskier
VIC
772 posts
VIC, 772 posts
1 Mar 2009 5:03am
^^ what he said is correct, but also, push the bar out when you see this happening, it will fly forward again
loco4olas
loco4olas
NSW
1525 posts
NSW, 1525 posts
1 Mar 2009 7:22am
Wind is too light-back lines too tight.
Hayman
Hayman
QLD
99 posts
QLD, 99 posts
1 Mar 2009 7:51am
Yeah, what you want to do is tune your kite to the wind speed. while the kite is sitting at 12 o clock; you want to adjust the depower of the kite, so it only just begins to start backstalling with the bar pulled all the way in.

This way the kite will fly fast through the wind window without slowing down and falling from the sky.

In light winds the goal is to keep the kite moving fast through the air by signing the kite generating apparent wind. If its a very light day, it doesnt matter how much you sheet the kite in to try and capture wind, if the wind speed isnt fast enough to get you on the plane anyway. Thus, sheet the kite out so it flys faster through the air and keep it moving. Also when signing the kite, pull the bar in on the downstroke and on the upstroke sheet it out slightly.

Note: When boosting, you may want to tune the kite so it just begins to backstall when the bar is still a good few inches from the fully sheeted in position. So when riding normally make sure you keep the bar out a bit and only pull it in all the way when boosting. This will rip you up in the air heaps faster
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
1 Mar 2009 10:17am
I assume you are a noob?the reason is that this is a classic noob fault .Experienced riders will use a big stroke of the kite and get going becasue they have developed the right balance of kite (including the right amount of shheting in and out ) and board.
In case your instructor didn't explain this, as you get closer to the ground there is wind gradient (which means due to friction of air going over the earth it slows the closer you get ,not alot of change but enough to make a difference, so when its light expeienced guys know through experience(even if that don't know what the physics are)to keep airspeed and sheet out a bit on the upstroke to make sure the kite keeps its airspped ,while this is all going on they have developed with experience the perfect balance on the board .

generally a noob hasn't devloped these skills ,often on the upstroke the kite has slowed too much through the turn and the noob strts falling backward using the bar as a balancing beam pulling it in (when it needs to go out) .My advice to my students is that rather than one big stroke as your trying to haul yourself up do 2- 3 smaller strokes making sure you start a bit more to the opposite side that you actually want to go 9particularly in light wind) smaller punchy figure 8's are the go, and don't take the kite so low on each stroke .there is more wind up there ,it will also give you a better angle and hold you up better ,the main thing is to get you up on the plane and going .When you've got this you can start to edge harder and send the kite out to the edge of the window (this is becasue you now have apparent wind due to the combo of board and kite speed) .This can be tricky but kiting is all about multi tasking and this will be easier than developing the perfect balance of eveything by doing what you are doing now .If flying the kite agessively isn't your thing my advice is do this without the board and get it as second nature .
A bit of advice for your board as you are getting pulled up don't stand up too rigid .keep your legs bent (back one a bit more than the front ) this will keep your centre of gravity lower and will give better balance on the board also point the board slightly down wind at the kite

Of course make sure your trim is right before you do all this
KIT33R
KIT33R
NSW
1716 posts
NSW, 1716 posts
1 Mar 2009 12:34pm
This is all good advice. Can I add one thing. If the kite does fall tail first into the water even after your best efforts there is one way to get it flying again quickly you may not know.

When it is laying there tail first dead in the water straight down wind, let go of the bar and with both hands give the front lines up near the trim strap 2 or 3 almighty tugs. With a bit of luck the kite will pop straight up out of the water. Quickly grab the bar to regain control, don't pull in too much, and you're up and flying again.

Practice in the shallows.
BigAirPaul
BigAirPaul
QLD
140 posts
QLD, 140 posts
1 Mar 2009 12:10pm
Mr float said...
In case your instructor didn't explain this, as you get closer to the ground there is wind gradient (which means due to friction of air going over the earth it slows the closer you get ,not alot of change but enough to make a difference, so when its light expeienced guys know through experience(even if that don't know what the physics are)to keep airspeed and sheet out a bit on the upstroke to make sure the kite keeps its airspped ,while this is all going on they have developed with experience the perfect balance on the board .

= Boundary Layer Effect. Don't worry I've got a degree in this sh1t !!! And I'm still not a good kiter !!!
And the advice about tuning the kite to the windspeed is spot on (See Hayman's post)... Every day is different...
Enjoy...
BAP
ewan kite
ewan kite
VIC
928 posts
VIC, 928 posts
1 Mar 2009 1:12pm
yeh wat kit33r said. just tug the centre lines really hard but to stop it happening altogether when you steer the kite back up to 11-12 from the first dive put the bar out 1/3 of the was just to stop it from backstalling.

hope you sort it out

ewan

p.s also try depowering ur kite a little.
mikeatcal
mikeatcal
QLD
6 posts
QLD, 6 posts
1 Mar 2009 1:26pm
Thanks guys, this is all great advice. I did not know that sheeting out on the up stroke would have that effect; I will definitely start doing that now. Also thanks for the advice about how to relaunch in this type of crash. Cheers.
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
1 Mar 2009 3:19pm
mikeatcal said...

Thanks guys, this is all great advice. I did not know that sheeting out on the up stroke would have that effect; I will definitely start doing that now. Also thanks for the advice about how to relaunch in this type of crash. Cheers.


working the kite harder and higher as your getting going will also avoid a crash in the first place .

good luck try it all out and let us all know how you go
surfingboye
surfingboye
NSW
2707 posts
NSW, 2707 posts
1 Mar 2009 10:25pm
DO YOU HAVE A LINK.

if so burn now.

tezza49er
tezza49er
NT
97 posts
NT, 97 posts
1 Mar 2009 9:37pm
mmmmmm...this sounds familiar
tezza49er
tezza49er
NT
97 posts
NT, 97 posts
1 Mar 2009 9:39pm
DO YOU HAVE A TURBO DIESEL ??? iF SO WAIT FOR 20 KNOTS AND IT'LL FLY.
slimjim
slimjim
NSW
54 posts
NSW, 54 posts
1 Mar 2009 11:50pm
Sounds like you are close to the limits of your kite and board in this low wind. Try a bigger board - or a bigger kite. You wont need to sheet in so hard to get planing and then you wont stall the kite.

The board option is probably cheaper
SammyJ
SammyJ
WA
571 posts
WA, 571 posts
1 Mar 2009 9:56pm
Won't happen when your flying a properly tuned kite in the right wind. If this all of a sudden starts happening that means the wind is dropping out, pack up, go home, drink beer.
SaveTheWhales
SaveTheWhales
WA
1913 posts
WA, 1913 posts
1 Mar 2009 10:59pm
For extra Noob credit

the sigma kites like flying on the front lines... keep this in mind always especially when you see it drift back into the window & you lose board speed !!!

Other than that for Gods sake- STOP trying to store alcohol in the leading edge - its not a Goon bladder great for a Sunshade with beer on tap but flys like your Bob the Boozer LOL

Cheers
mark1234
mark1234
VIC
17 posts
VIC, 17 posts
2 Mar 2009 1:22pm
While the wind gradient / boundary layer effect does exist, that's not really why it backstalls in close to the ground pointing up - think about the orientation of the kite:

The wind is largely parallel to the ground, as it falls back, irrespective of the bar position, it's angle of attack increases. When at the zenith, it's pretty much parallel to the airflow. When on it's tail on the ground, pretty much perpendicular.

A couple of possibly useful comments:

I've found when my kite is backstalling and falling out the air backwards, simply turning it in the direction I'm travelling usually picks it up.

In the very light instead of starting with the kite at the zenith, diving down and getting stuck in the bottom trying to make the turn back up... I start it at the front edge of the window low down, send it back towards the zenith - that pulls me partially up onto the board, THEN the powerstroke comes down and I'm already in a position to get moving.

Releasing / pumping the bar can also help get it out of that bottom turn.
moon waxing
moon waxing
WA
313 posts
WA, 313 posts
2 Mar 2009 12:17pm
mark1234 said...

The wind is largely parallel to the ground, as it falls back, irrespective of the bar position, it's angle of attack increases. When at the zenith, it's pretty much parallel to the airflow. When on it's tail on the ground, pretty much perpendicular.


This is spot on.

Try to remember the winds angle of attack to the kite changes depending on the kites position in the wind window. If the kite is on or near to the edge of the wind window you can have the bar sheeted in as the kite moves further into the wind window the kite is effectively sheeted in more without you moving the bar so to compensate the bar should be sheeted out.

As the kite moves through the air the apparent wind (vector sum = true wind + head wind) moves round the leading edge, this allows the bar to be sheeted in more. As soon as the kites speed through the air slows down again or stops the apparent wind will move away from the leading edge stalling the kite if you don’t sheet out.

For figure of ‘8’ing the kite the bar can be sheeted in at the top stroke but it must be sheeted out on the bottom stroke.

A lot of windsurfers getting into kitesurfing make this mistake of pulling the bar in to try and get more power where as this has the opposite effect stalling the kite. The correct technique is to push the bar away letting the wind flow across the kite re-establishing power.

Eventually all of this will happen naturally (auto pilot) without thinking about it, for now be a bit of a nurd and think about the physics of it for uninterrupted kitesurfing.
GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
2 Mar 2009 2:28pm
moon waxing said...A lot of windsurfers getting into kitesurfing make this mistake of pulling the bar in to try and get more power where as this has the opposite effect stalling the kite.


Only if there was not enough wind and/or your kite was setup wrong to begin with!
moon waxing
moon waxing
WA
313 posts
WA, 313 posts
2 Mar 2009 12:40pm
GalahOnTheBay said...

moon waxing said...A lot of windsurfers getting into kitesurfing make this mistake of pulling the bar in to try and get more power where as this has the opposite effect stalling the kite.


Only if there was not enough wind and/or your kite was setup wrong to begin with!


This was all in respect of the initial post of 10 to 14 knots "light winds"

You can still stall a kite in stronger winds but its harder if the kite is in its upper wind range.
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
2 Mar 2009 2:41pm
mark1234 said...

While the wind gradient / boundary layer effect does exist, that's not really why it backstalls in close to the ground pointing up - think about the orientation of the kite:

The wind is largely parallel to the ground, as it falls back, irrespective of the bar position, it's angle of attack increases. When at the zenith, it's pretty much parallel to the airflow. When on it's tail on the ground, pretty much perpendicular.

A couple of possibly useful comments:

I've found when my kite is backstalling and falling out the air backwards, simply turning it in the direction I'm travelling usually picks it up.

In the very light instead of starting with the kite at the zenith, diving down and getting stuck in the bottom trying to make the turn back up... I start it at the front edge of the window low down, send it back towards the zenith - that pulls me partially up onto the board, THEN the powerstroke comes down and I'm already in a position to get moving.

Releasing / pumping the bar can also help get it out of that bottom turn.


Interesting advice and definitely worth trying
mikeatcal
mikeatcal
QLD
6 posts
QLD, 6 posts
2 Mar 2009 5:14pm
Thanks for all the help, I got out again late yesterday and again it was light winds (10-14 knots). I played with the configuration of my kite a bit to allow the front lines to be shorter so that my back lines would have some more slack. I also took some time to stand on the beach and sheet the bar all the way in to check and see if it back stalled. Once I was comfortable with all this I hit the water. It took a bit of practice but now I am getting very comfortable with sheeting out on the up stroke after the initial dive of the kite to get up and going. This worked very well! By the end of the day it was getting pretty automatic and I was never getting that feeling of the kite stalling and dropping out of the sky. Thanks for all the help!
GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
2 Mar 2009 7:24pm
Thank you, please come again soon... :-)
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