What foil make and size

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General Gear Reviews Newbies The Hookup Foiling Lost & Found WA NSW QLD SA VIC TAS

not on board

210 posts

not on board

210 posts

15 Jun 2006 5:45am

Tobes or any other Foil rider, I need some info.

After 5 years here in the land of OZ, Im heading back to the states.
The area Im going to has mainly snow kiting and low wind lake kiting(12-18knots at best) what would be a good size foil to get for use in these cases(85kilos)? I am interested in foils, as who wants to mess with a pump and trying to pinch a bladder nipple when its -10. would prefer to have something easy to setup and put away that can handle gusts.

I will be about 7 hours from Hood River so will still take some trips to the home of Slingshot for 20-30 knot riding and so will keep my LEIs but expect to get more snow riding then summer.

mud duck

45 posts

mud duck

45 posts

15 Jun 2006 9:49am

Check the pulse...

www.skywalk.org/

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

15 Jun 2006 12:50pm

G'day Not

Taking a break from the hectic schedule over here in New Caledonia testing new gear and having short meetings.
Check out the Ozone Frenzy or Access here
~~https://www.kitepower.com.au/catalog/category_249_Kites.html~~

The Blade 4 has finally arrived too, they are not depowerable like the Frenzy and Access (excellent in stong and gusty winds), but still a very user friendly power kite, with good wind range, just depends on your budget, but don't forget you can claim back the GST on the purchase price, we can provide all the details on how to do that and it is easy.

If you were still going to want to kitesurf, you might consider a bow style kite with single point inflation?

I'll be back next week with news on all going on at the Cabrinha 2006 dealer meeting.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

tobes

NSW

1000 posts

tobes

NSW, 1000 posts

15 Jun 2006 2:52pm

Tough brief.
I haven't used my 10m Pulse enough to comment much about the kite, but very happy so far, see the gear reviews....
For land and water I reckon the Pulse 13m for your weight/windrange. Or a big PL venom but word is they're better in the smaller sizes. I imagine the windrange would be different on the mountains, you might be after a smaller kite.
For pure snow kiting either of those would also work well, or go open celled like Ozone Frenzy. They seem to work for Chasta!
Closed cell foils can be more stable in bad wind because the kite won't "collapse" like an open celled foil can. The trade off is they're more likely to "explode" when you smack em into the ground but Flysurfer's pressure relief valves seem to do a pretty good job.

Older models can be picked up pretty cheaply too, and foils are harder to kill than tubes so they should still have a bit of life in em.

Was good to meet you at the downwinder wrap party, bet you'll miss sydney beaches eh?

schmik

NSW

235 posts

schmik

NSW, 235 posts

15 Jun 2006 3:57pm

I've never flown a flysurfer but have flown plenty of foils. I own both PL venoms and Ozone frenzys. I have only started kitsurfing this year but have been land boarding and buggying with foils since 2003.

I would definately go for an open cell foil for snow kiting. It is the safest and by far the easiest. For snow kting don't use an Arc. I enjoy the arcs but the ground handling sux compared to open foils. Getting into and out of a snowboard or skis if you mess up will just not be worth it. Arcs can be a royal pain in the ass for landboarding so for the snow.... too much trouble!

I worry about the closed cell nature of flysurfers... can they still drag you around if you crash them? Will it crumble and turn into a pile of fabric if you mess up?

My choice would be a frenzy.

ON DRY LAND - The 12m is ok from 10kn - 18kn
the 10m 16kn - 24kn
That is for me (90kg) and where I fly it is hell gusty... just like i imagine the mountains to be.

If you can aford 2 get teh 7m and 12m or the 5m and 10m. Normally it is the 7/12 combo for riders > 85kg and the 5/10 for riders < 85kg.... you are right in the middle.

The Flexi sabre is also good as is an air evolution... check em out.

schmik

tobes

NSW

1000 posts

tobes

NSW, 1000 posts

15 Jun 2006 4:56pm

quote:
Originally posted by schmik

I worry about the closed cell nature of flysurfers... can they still drag you around if you crash them? Will it crumble and turn into a pile of fabric if you mess up?

Hey Schmik!
All Flysurfers up till the pulse use a safety system on the rear lines, with a mix of fronts and rears, a bit like when you stake out a foil on the rears. In big sizes or at the top of the windrange this can still have a bit of pull, if you flag the kite out on one line there is nearly none. The Pulse has a 5th line safety that goes to the centre of the kite, when you unhook the kite folds in half.
The "blow out valves" are designed to relieve pressure in a crash, it is still possible to damage the kite, same as any foil, particularly with high speed crashes leading edge down.
More likely to damage some of the internal webbing than "crumble and turn into a pile of fabric" though.
The only real difference in ground handling would be the Flysurfers take longer to deflate than an open celled kite.
For both snow and water FS is the go, though I've seen some vids of Chasta kitesurfing with Frenzies, impressive.

Edit- just found a thread on KF discussing exactly this topic. ~~http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2326546~~

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

16 Jun 2006 6:22am

quote:
Originally posted by schmik

I've never flown a flysurfer but have flown plenty of foils. I own both PL venoms and Ozone frenzys. I have only started kitsurfing this year but have been land boarding and buggying with foils since 2003.

I would definately go for an open cell foil for snow kiting. It is the safest and by far the easiest. For snow kting don't use an Arc. I enjoy the arcs but the ground handling sux compared to open foils. Getting into and out of a snowboard or skis if you mess up will just not be worth it. Arcs can be a royal pain in the ass for landboarding so for the snow.... too much trouble!

I worry about the closed cell nature of flysurfers... can they still drag you around if you crash them? Will it crumble and turn into a pile of fabric if you mess up?

My choice would be a frenzy.

ON DRY LAND - The 12m is ok from 10kn - 18kn
the 10m 16kn - 24kn
That is for me (90kg) and where I fly it is hell gusty... just like i imagine the mountains to be.

If you can aford 2 get teh 7m and 12m or the 5m and 10m. Normally it is the 7/12 combo for riders > 85kg and the 5/10 for riders < 85kg.... you are right in the middle.

The Flexi sabre is also good as is an air evolution... check em out.

schmik

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

16 Jun 2006 6:29am

quote:
Originally posted by Mr float

quote:
Originally posted by schmik

I've never flown a flysurfer but have flown plenty of foils. I own both PL venoms and Ozone frenzys. I have only started kitsurfing this year but have been land boarding and buggying with foils since 2003.

I would definately go for an open cell foil for snow kiting. It is the safest and by far the easiest. For snow kting don't use an Arc. I enjoy the arcs but the ground handling sux compared to open foils. Getting into and out of a snowboard or skis if you mess up will just not be worth it. Arcs can be a royal pain in the ass for landboarding so for the snow.... too much trouble!

I worry about the closed cell nature of flysurfers... can they still drag you around if you crash them? Will it crumble and turn into a pile of fabric if you mess up?

My choice would be a frenzy.

ON DRY LAND - The 12m is ok from 10kn - 18kn
the 10m 16kn - 24kn
That is for me (90kg) and where I fly it is hell gusty... just like i imagine the mountains to be.

If you can aford 2 get teh 7m and 12m or the 5m and 10m. Normally it is the 7/12 combo for riders > 85kg and the 5/10 for riders < 85kg.... you are right in the middle.

The Flexi sabre is also good as is an air evolution... check em out.

schmik

I'm not sure what happened in the last post .Anyway ,
I have been using arcs regularly in the snow since they came out 5 years ago and Ben Deacon used them to cross greenland and will use them to cross antarctica.
i'm not sure what you mean about the ground handling problems .We have used them in our swirly gusty conditions for years and they are great.Also handle the gusty swirly stuff in the air better than anything I have seen.granted that the frenzy is a great kite but everytimme I have seen them in our montains the kites have been tip collapsing and I see the riders struggling with landing on their own if the wind come s up .Also alot of expense for a few sessions on the snow.I find that the venom works well for all our apps .Water land and snow
cheers
lach

schmik

NSW

235 posts

schmik

NSW, 235 posts

16 Jun 2006 6:36am

Tobes, Thanks for the info. I'd love to have a try of a flysurfer but they are hard to get ones hands on in Aus.... and very expensive.

I have only seen one first hand and being closed cell it looked like it would keep its shape very well in a crash (obviously so you can water relaunch it). and I was concerned that in a crash (without pulling the safety) it could still pull very hard. Obviously any foil can do this but open foils tend to crumple up more than closed.

schmik

schmik

NSW

235 posts

schmik

NSW, 235 posts

16 Jun 2006 6:46am

Mr Float, by ground handling I mean, setup, launch and relaunch. If you crash an open foil 95% of the time it will relaunch with a few tugs on the front line. The Arcs relaunch well too but when they bow tie they need the pilot to go and unwrap them.

Frezies definately need more pilot input than arcs. The latest frezies don't tip tuck and the new safety makes landing and then re-rigging very easy.... you wouldn't even need to getout of your bindings.

I have nothing against arcs (i love my venoms) I just think that open foils are very user friendly for land.

I can be riding an open foil in a mintue or two from arriving, arcs need setup. This applies to every crash.... the arc will be harder to relaunch and may need unwrapping.

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth. I argree that closed foils are fantastic but I believe that there are always trade offs. Water re-launch = slightly harder setup and ground handling...... for the ultimate ease of use go for a fixed bridle open cell foil like a blade 4; heaps of grunt and sooo easy to use.

schmik

not on board

210 posts

not on board

210 posts

16 Jun 2006 5:15am

I had read that the blades have a lot of bar tension. A real workout. Is that true? Can an open cell be used on water or is it really just a land option?
The Pulse sounds great, but pretty pricey. What would someone suggest in a 05 foil/arc?

tobes

NSW

1000 posts

tobes

NSW, 1000 posts

16 Jun 2006 7:31am

You can use an open cell on water, just don't drop it.

Second hand look at-
Flysurfer Speed for lightwind, Psycho2 or Extacy (saw one in the wa for sale recently)
Venom
Frenzy 05
Ozone Access

Schmik, you're in Melb? Aim kites is a Flysurfer distributor, you might be able to get a demo, luxury, I had to trust internet reviews.

schmik

NSW

235 posts

schmik

NSW, 235 posts

16 Jun 2006 7:57am

I'm in Sydney. I don't know of any retailers here that stock FS.

As for 05 kites. The 05 frenzies are good... i think kitepower may have an 04 really cheap.
The PL venoms are nice because they are ok for land and water.

And yes.... a blade pulls very hard. A harness is must! They are a good work out. Plenty of kiters use blades in teh water. The 8.5m and the 10.5m are light wind beasts!!!! Only the FS speed 17 can compare.

schmik

NeilT

139 posts

NeilT

WA, 139 posts

16 Jun 2006 5:38pm

An open cell foil will become an instant anchor if you crash it in the ocean or lake. Chances are that you will LOSE the kite!

I would go a Venom 13. No hassles, no breakages etc etc.

I have buggied with one in 5 or 6 knots quite safely.

cheers

NeilT

Uncle Rico

NSW

200 posts

Uncle Rico

NSW, 200 posts

19 Jun 2006 2:58pm

kiteforum.com/viewforum.php?f=200/storage2/videos/ce801b48hours.mpg

The new Psycho3 proto in action for those interested...

Soonee

VIC

147 posts

Soonee

VIC, 147 posts

19 Jun 2006 7:15pm

For my 2 cents worth:
You would do well to look at the Gin Eskimo www.gingliders.com which is a fully depowerable performance foil similar to the frenzy but with a fraction of the price tag.

I like the 8.5m size(feels a lot like a 12m - 14m inflatable)but you could easily go the 11.0m for wind like that.
Or if you want the best then look into the Air Evolution from France which just took out 3 of the 4 titles in the world snowkite titles. They arguably have more lift than the frenzy and you buy a size smaller than you likely would with the ozone.Have a look at the world title videos at www.semnozkitesurfing.com to see what they can do. Also gives a good look at what everyone is flying.
Peter Lynn are good but in my opinion still don't drop like a rock if you need them to in a real hurry and I really like softness of the reverse launch of a foil.a couple ofclumps of sand or snow and it's lifeless but..
Real foils can be turned from a useless rag into a beast from 25m away and back into a piece of cloth lying on the snow, and you will not convince me that flysurfer or peter lynn kites can do that.
Air Evolution and Gin are available in Australia now. PM me and I can tell you where.But I guess you will probably be waiting to get to the US before you buy anyway?

If you are on a real budget then PKD or feedtherat can hook you up with a non-depowerable kite 4 or 5m kite for around $400 which is not a lot of money.

tobes

NSW

1000 posts

tobes

NSW, 1000 posts

19 Jun 2006 7:45pm

The Eskimo's look interesting
~~http://www.gingliders.com/products/eskimo.php~~
but why did they make them look exactly like a Frenzy 05?
All those kites, Air Evolution, Eskimo, Frenzy 06, sound great, I'd love to try em.
The Flysurfer Pulse can be turned from a useless rag into a beast from 25m away and back into a fairly useless inflated pillow folded in half on a string...
The good thing is it won't turn into a "useless rag" in mid air because it can't collapse in turbulence, and if you decide to take your foil on those lakes you might save yourself a cold swim.
Re reading your brief Not on board, look at the Speed 13, you might find one second hand, always a good light wind kite on the water.
As discussed, there's lots of land only options but not many for both land and water.

Anyone keen for an Aussie snowkite trip this year? I'd like to find out if my kite is actually any good up there!

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

20 Jun 2006 6:26am

Any ideas on the price of the gin kites .I would like to try them in our mountains

I have been snowkiting here for 10 years now and typically the winds are either nukin or nothin in NSW and if your lucky one day out of 7 will be primo 15-20 kts .
Now when it is nothin I use a 19 m Venom 2 sweet for everything inc freestyle and ridge soaring.It can handle gusts on the snow with my weight up to 25 kts and I'm still going in lulls around 10 kts.if I need to drop it I drop it to the leash (one line and stake it.I use short skis 100 cm and these workfine )If you are using an open cell foil be prepared to stake it too because if the wind gets over 25 kts when its backed down there is still alot of pull in the crumpled bag.The stake is handy 4 sure
Nukin is the tricky one .Forget freestyle .The wind is likely to be around 100 km/h 40-50 kts .A small venom or any depowerable kite on short lines works fine but any samll foil will work fine .I have used a 1.5 pepper .

all the best

Lach

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

20 Jun 2006 6:50am

quote:
Originally posted by tobes

The Eskimo's look interesting

but why did they make them look exactly like a Frenzy 05?

G'day Tobes

The answer is obvious isn't it?
Its worth repeating though, they want you to think you are getting the original and best, the benchmark kite from Ozone, the Frenzy.

There will always be imitators and leaders. But are the imitators actually as good? Is their safety system as well tested and proven as a Frenzy's? Is the performance actually as good as a Frenzy.

If you want to get your snowkite in oz, we can arrange for a tax invoice so you can buy tax free, and we will give you a very competitive price as well.
We will match or better any price of any comparable kite, and we have them all in stock, ready to fly.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

schmik

NSW

235 posts

schmik

NSW, 235 posts

20 Jun 2006 6:59am

I'd be up for snowkite trip. Time is (an always will be) a problem but i am keen.

One day..... we should have a FOIL day. All meet up and try each others kites.

And yes, that GIN looks very nice, as does the PULSE. I want one of each :)!

cheers
schmik

not on board

210 posts

not on board

210 posts

20 Jun 2006 5:38am

Thanks for all the input everyone.
I will probably end up getting a lowind snow/lake kite. Venom or Frenzy sound like good options and possible to find in 05 models.

For when I go on trips to the gorge or maybe to South America I will get a 12m bow which I have seen others my wieght and ability ride in 30+ knots. That should do me for most of my future kite needs.

Soonee

VIC

147 posts

Soonee

VIC, 147 posts

20 Jun 2006 7:42am

Thanks Steve I couldn't have put it any better, in your own words

The answer is obvious isn't it?
Its worth repeating though, they want you to think you are getting the original and best, the benchmark kite from Ozone, the Frenzy.

There will always be imitators and leaders. But are the imitators actually as good?

I guess that explains why the Air Evolution just claimed the 3 world titles then. They really are unlike any other kite on the market today.

THe French really seem to know what they are doing when it comes to design.
Not that I've actually flown one, just seen the videos.

tobes

NSW

1000 posts

tobes

NSW, 1000 posts

20 Jun 2006 8:38am

quote:
Originally posted by schmik

I'd be up for snowkite trip. Time is (an always will be) a problem but i am keen.

Stay in touch if you have a go. If the wind doesn't cooperate I spose I'll just have to go snowboarding

quote:
Originally posted by schmikOne day..... we should have a FOIL day. All meet up and try each others kites.

Good idea. A Dolls Point foil regatta one weekend when the NE's kick back in? Sounds like what thearcmancan was trying to organise

A BBQ n beers after?

St Kite

VIC

73 posts

St Kite

VIC, 73 posts

23 Jun 2006 10:28am

The guys that have the Gin Eskimos in Melbourne said they are available to try over the weekend in Elwood at the park.

I myself have an 05 8.5m Ozone Frenzy, the Gin in my opinion is a better kite, Better made and better finished, Bar Bag etc and it flys smoother with more power. i will be changing all my personal and school kites over to the Gin.

If you want to demo the kites you can give me a ring on 0418 583 233

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