When will they learn

> 10 years ago
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jan
jan
WA
1119 posts
jan jan
WA, 1119 posts
15 Dec 2006 2:15pm
spoken by someone who has never had a line blow out (or any other style of serious gear failure)
NJPornstar
NJPornstar
WA
790 posts
WA, 790 posts
15 Dec 2006 2:32pm
Maybe Im a goofy beginner.
But using the 5th line, my kite wont power along to the edge of the window and break if it goes straight down.

My safety does not have tension and will not break, me, the kite or snap the leash it self.

Its full time and semi spinable too.

While learning I have broken a thing or 2. Anyone who knows me knows I suck ass, crash almost every tack and even on the beach...
kitecrazzzy
kitecrazzzy
WA
2184 posts
WA, 2184 posts
15 Dec 2006 3:30pm
i have to say all BOW kites should have a one line safety as a back up to the depower because depowe isnt going to save you in 100% and either will one line on its own.
best idea, 5th line, 100% d power and the thing you pull on the end of the bar. if you have that then you have 4 options when killing the power when you really have to but i can still think of one instance were that wouldnt be enough so trusting one system on its own is pretty care less.
dog
dog
WA
57 posts
dog dog
WA, 57 posts
15 Dec 2006 4:41pm
All this talk of getting a license and licenseing your kite is just plain crap. Keep it real people.
GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
15 Dec 2006 7:28pm
Amen brother

VOTE 1 NJPornstar for PM!

quote:
Originally posted by NJPornstar

If we are so concerned with safety there should be a industry safety standard enforced by feds and the KBG.

This could be a goodie, probably make beginners pizz:

Law - Safety leashes must be connected FULL TIME to a system that fully sedates a kite.

Meaning - If in an emergency the kite still remains capable of flying theres not enough controlled sedation.

Consequence - If "SAFETY" is rigged any other unreliable way you will go to gaol and the whole safety system (bridle and all) will be repetitively shoved in your Bum until you realize your incompetence.




Free2Kite
Free2Kite
QLD
85 posts
QLD, 85 posts
15 Dec 2006 6:37pm
Talk of licensing is keeping it real. I can imagine the chat on a Jetski forum in the past about lisences and dismissing it as keeping it real.

Their attitude and demonstrated potential for harming the innocent and themselves has made them social outcasts and over regulated and controlled.

I think there is a bit of De ja vu.

Freed.
GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
15 Dec 2006 7:53pm
Having spent more time than I would have liked in the "No sh#t there I was..." department, and quite a lot of time mulling over the reasons for my own accidents, my grey hair tells me that accidents are pretty much always caused when a number of opportunities to prevent the accident are not taken.

See

Touble is by the time you get that far down the line the odds are starting to get heavily stacked against you.

How many time have you heard the story of an accident described with the terms:
- could have
- should have
- didn't

If your kite does not depower when you activate the safety then you are in trouble.
- Bow riders can your kite depower WHEN a bridle line breaks?
- C riders what happens WHEN your safety line breaks?
- Still think this works when you are hooked in and the wind is cranking?

And for those who never want to release thier kites you better hope you never end up in conditions 50 meters downwind = "pain and lament", or when even a small c kite on the 5th line has too much pull to be "safe"...

Here endeth the motherhood lesson for today!
sgo
sgo
VIC
215 posts
sgo sgo
VIC, 215 posts
15 Dec 2006 10:14pm
Saw a good example in Torquay last weekend.
Experienced rider had assisted launch, with a helper holding on to the harness handle.
Unexpectedly the kite launched fully powered, dragging rider and helper, missed trees, missed sign-post, lost helper, missed next sign-post, missed stair-railing, over the retaining wall, missed all the swimmers and came to rest 20 metres out at sea.
Lots of lessons learnt by all, least of which is that while your brain says "what the" you haven't had time to let go of the bar, or pull any release, and it's all over.
richo
richo
QLD
337 posts
QLD, 337 posts
15 Dec 2006 10:56pm
holy hell sgo
thats as nasty as it comes
was it a bow?
if ya not gong to let go of the bar then there is nothing you can do
it is just so stupid. And so is a fifth line on a bow, it would drive me nuts. just let of the bloody bar...goodness! is that so hard....It is the first thing i was taught on the only time i did not when i was in trouble...was to steer the bloody thing out of a park, early day horrors.

We are getting more bad close calls at kfc, some really bad stuff. I hate to agree with some of the above stuff but regulation might be the only answer. How would you police it who is going to pay for it. They will ban it first. Ban it before they spend probably millions in regulating it.
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
15 Dec 2006 9:56pm
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

Riders of bow kites need to understand that the primary safety system is to let go of the bar. This must be practiced in all winds so that it becomes second nature.




Stevey,
You might wish to have second thoughts about the second nature bit.

Unfortunately,
'just letting go' of the bar isn't the natural reaction in the heat of the moment.
The death-grip is.
Lock paw.

Natural defence mechanisms involuntarily kick-in without hesitation.
There is no 2 second warning with red lights aflash.
Sh1t happens in a flash.
There is no time to read the words printed on the bar:
<JUST LET GO>
You're blind-sided in a blink.
It happens.

And when it happens....
In that nano-second,
The body contorts into the foetal position.
You're back in your yummy mummys tummy deathgripping your kitebar.
The strangle-pass leash looks alot like an umbilical cord.
It's a kitesurfing foetus.


Yep,,,
It was the newbies fault,,,
The idiot didn't LET GO ,,,
Fool,,,
Damn fool,,,
paulcam03
paulcam03
VIC
10 posts
VIC, 10 posts
16 Dec 2006 12:29am
For those looking for the Bow Kite Self Launching Video:
www.kitepower.com.au/blogs/news
cwamit
cwamit
WA
1194 posts
WA, 1194 posts
15 Dec 2006 11:39pm
GOSH isnt it all so simplistic in good ol cyber world. "Just teach people to let go of the bar", to "its the death grip” no one has seem to stated real world behavior - its more to do with the perceived ability of being in control that’s the issue... if your bow/sle is doing kite loops by itself somehow I cant see how letting go of the bar is going to do a great deal particularly if you have lost the ability to steer then it can be assumed the ability of the kite to depower would be compromised - its not to say don’t let go of the bar, but the situation at the time can warrant what ever might have been the best action in hindsight after the fact of your actions.

And here’s the point if your a bit slow on the uptake…

If something snaps, comes loose, goes haywire in an instant the user may tend to try and correct a kite or worse over correct the kite because of this erratic abnormal behavior - no matter if its c or a high depower kite - your going to get yanked and maybe spanked (you know like when you stuff a trick)!. Why? Because it is all split second stuff thrown in with your instincts of ability and the security in trying to correct the problem!

What’s more beneficial is awareness and prevention and that’s were the cyber world comes in good use in my opinion because I generally read up on posted accidents, helps keeps me grounded with the risks because lets face it its so easy to become blasé about the sport after a while - and that can be universal no matter what preference of kite you fly.

Practicing using the QR is more important in most instances because once it hits home (if still physically able) that your ability cant correct the situation be that from a broken line, chicken loop problem, bridle tangle - then ability of the QR comes into play and being able to release with your eyes closed (i.e. QR under water) might be what saves someone from serious injury.

Launching with the QR in one hand and the bar in the other, be that self or an assisted launch - to me seems like basic 101 stuff or better known as common sense.

ral inn first post pretty much summed it up with regards to QR use - unfortunately the key points were lost in translation because to some it could have been seen as indicative of the bow kites popularity and the safety they can be perceived to have.. Personally I would like to see the use of the words high depower as opposed to total depower when talking about bow characteristics.

LICENSING – it’s a contentious issue because the inherit nature of the sport with – line breakages, pulley malfunctions, volatile wind conditions and the list goes on - even though preventable from a legal point of view (and cyber view) realistically isn’t always practicable and therefore licensing holds a lot of grey areas in enforcement and the ability of prevention of accidents.

oh fluck! i have done it again.. and wrote a bloody essay!
ottisgrey
ottisgrey
WA
38 posts
WA, 38 posts
16 Dec 2006 6:32am
Nice job cwamit,

Essay or not you brought up some cogent points.

An out of control kite has no master, be it from line break, tangled bridle, or some bar mal function, all of these things happen.

Those who would resort to personal attacks, and self righteously assign blame are real the problem in cyber-space, their main purpose is to derail the discussion by drawing the attention to them, they are just stroking their own egos; best to just ignore these jake-offs.


It's ashame they are even tolerated, but what can you do?

No matter.

Nice job
cwamit

ottis
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2898 posts
SA, 2898 posts
16 Dec 2006 11:30am
quote:
Originally posted by sgo

Saw a good example in Torquay last weekend.
Experienced rider had assisted launch, with a helper holding on to the harness handle.
Unexpectedly the kite launched fully powered, dragging rider and helper, missed trees, missed sign-post, lost helper, missed next sign-post, missed stair-railing, over the retaining wall, missed all the swimmers and came to rest 20 metres out at sea.
Lots of lessons learnt by all, least of which is that while your brain says "what the" you haven't had time to let go of the bar, or pull any release, and it's all over.




That was a case of launching up on the footpath.
Han's chicken loop came off his harness as he launched.
he still had his leash attached to the depower line at the C/loop so could have let go.

But probably his first thought was to save it, then try and save all the kids playing on the beach and ducking. He went over my head on his way to the beach.

This was a very experienced kiter on a CB12m. And one of the closest incidents to an outright disaster there has ever been at Pt Danger.

Kiters at Pt D. should openly and aggressively discourage launching on the footpath.
ottisgrey
ottisgrey
WA
38 posts
WA, 38 posts
16 Dec 2006 11:02am
Nobody let's go ever

when you get blind-sided you hang on for dear life.

That's just how it is.

Sure, say he tried to save the children, the dear little children, please be may guest, white-wash away, be a bro..

But the story simply does not wash,

He was on the fabled Crossbow, word in the shops is, just let go.

You save yourself and the dear sweet children...

Trouble is, nobody ever lets go.

That's just how it is.


ottis

Launching unhooked? right, that works...NOT
sgo
sgo
VIC
215 posts
sgo sgo
VIC, 215 posts
17 Dec 2006 8:41am
Launching un-hooked, that was one of the un-intentional bits that went wrong.
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2898 posts
SA, 2898 posts
17 Dec 2006 3:59pm
One problem with the letting go thing, in relation to how the brain works.

Feet in contact with ground = brain will allow hands to let go.

feet not in contact with ground = brain thinks letting go means freefall to pain, tells hands "don't let go".
doppelganger
doppelganger
VIC
337 posts
VIC, 337 posts
17 Dec 2006 4:45pm
They should not be launching kites up on that footpath at Pt Danger, it's only a matter of time before someone else gets dragged down/over that incline and ends up mixing with the tree, sign,stairs,bluestone fence or some bystander.
silviu
silviu
VIC
663 posts
VIC, 663 posts
17 Dec 2006 6:30pm
And, this is what happens when:
You launch doddgy
In on shore winds
don't let go

www.dailymotion.com/video/xk0ca

and the poor bugger was lucky to walk away
doppelganger
doppelganger
VIC
337 posts
VIC, 337 posts
17 Dec 2006 9:26pm
That's an excellent example of the death grip, he had a good oportunity when on the beach to QR, but nup, he was gunna hang on to that puppy till the end. Just as well the end wasn't fatal.
Free2Kite
Free2Kite
QLD
85 posts
QLD, 85 posts
18 Dec 2006 10:26am
I'm still waiting for the Steve shattering blast from Tony L.

This thread could have some potentail for a decent read.

I'm on the side of Ottisgrey, I saw a guy in trouble release his Chicken loop, only to not let go the bar with his other hand.
Lucky for him kite did one arch and crashed.
sort of even says something about launching with one hand on release.

Can't see anything wrong with the buddy in control of safety idea, but probably only good for 5th line kites.

5th lines on bows then maybe a great idea for us newbies, when confident enough it can be removed if it's a nuisence.

Freed.
junglist
junglist
VIC
701 posts
VIC, 701 posts
18 Dec 2006 12:20pm
quote:
Originally posted by doppelganger

They should not be launching kites up on that footpath at Pt Danger, it's only a matter of time before someone else gets dragged down/over that incline and ends up mixing with the tree, sign,stairs,bluestone fence or some bystander.



S*ithouse place! Especially when you get some arrogant 60 year old ba*tard landing his kite without assistance (even though offered) and nearly taking out four people, including myself.

You know, noobs cop a lot of stick on this site, however some of the arrogant retards (for which read 'experienced kiters') down at Pt Danger really need to take a good look at themselves.
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2898 posts
SA, 2898 posts
18 Dec 2006 8:20pm
Be careful Junglist, i'm not 60 yet.

What's the best thing about having Alzheimer's disease?


You meet new friends every day.

2 rules.
1. always help a fellow kiter.
2. Lead by example.
3.
4.
5.
6.
FlyingWhiteBoy
FlyingWhiteBoy
WA
111 posts
WA, 111 posts
19 Dec 2006 12:04am
Licensing of the sport would require the industry to step up and take a large part of the cost. Kite manufactures are making bucket loads of cash and should be taking some responsibility for the system they are used in. In saying this, licensing would also legitimise the sport and improve the level of kiting done by all.

The down side is of course that there is going to be a percentage of people who can not afford the extra costs involved and will thus not be able to participate in this magnificant sport. Is this cost worth public safety?

There are far more kites on the water than jetskis and they are used where there are far more people. The potential for harm to the public is thus much higher. Yet any idiot can buy a kite and with no training, legally launch it on a crowed beach.

silviu
silviu
VIC
663 posts
VIC, 663 posts
19 Dec 2006 10:49am
As well as the resistance of city councils to acknowledge the need for some "coordination" and understanding of the needs of the sport and accept the idea of setting a small percentage of the beach as launching/landing zone for kiting.
The big luck, at least here in Melbourne is that when the southerlies/seabreezes are starting, the air starts to cool down dramatically and the beach goers are leaving.
However, there are so many days during the summer season, the beach goers are "spread everywhere" and the launching/landing become impossible.
Every time we had requested some understanding, we were told, that the beach is "public" and setting up and area for kiting will be a "restriction".
This is a very "narrow" approach, not taking in consideration the safety aspect.
In theyr opinion, we, the kiters, are a nuisance.
I am against licensing, as it will come at a price, and the "public servants" will start drawing "rules and regulations" each one of them with penalties if you don’t follow them, so the price will be even higher.
Unless we will not understand that we have to self regulate and start supporting AKSA and the state branches in their quest to get the sport widely accepted, we may end being ruled by public servants, and end with our hands deeper in our pockets (like the price we are paying now is not high enough).
junglist
junglist
VIC
701 posts
VIC, 701 posts
19 Dec 2006 12:16pm


"It would be interesting to hear what the manufacturers (and sponsors of this site) think of the matter. After all a ban on Kite Surfing ruins our fun, but to the manufacturers it is their livelihoods"

Still no word from the manufacturers on this one. Plenty of opinions from your average punter, yet nothing from the industry.

Come on guys, you sponsor this site, so we know you are watching!
ottisgrey
ottisgrey
WA
38 posts
WA, 38 posts
19 Dec 2006 10:27am
Well,

I'd say let sleeping dogs lie.

The more in your face we as a group get, the shorter our days become.

The only hope is that we continue to be lucky and stay out of the news.

Yeah, you can lead an ass to water but you cannot make him let go.

The sad truth of it is, we do not necessarily get safer with time, we get persistently more complacent with time.


And these new guys are perhaps safer in that they are less likely to push their envelopes,


however, they also lack the experience to spot a bad situation "about" to happen.

This is the key to it all:

Being able to spot a kite about to go bad, and to act before you go ballistic.

This is a catch 22, how do you get the experience without taking the hit?

And the more experienced you become (read: the more ** you get away with) the more likely you are to push your luck.


Unfortunately, their is a general reluctance to recognize these hard facts, and it's the factions with the least noble interests who tend to derail any discussion about them; tend to make blanket claims e.g. it is simple, just let go.

Like I say, any one who would exploit the word safety to promote this sport is only doing themselves a favor.

The facts are tougher than we'd care to acknowledge, that's why it would be better to Just STFU and kite.

That goes triple for advertising the so called " safety " lesson.

Who are you trying to kid?

Be careful out there, and good luck.
ottis
seasnake
seasnake
WA
3 posts
WA, 3 posts
19 Dec 2006 11:09am
to protect the general public from munkeys hanging on a bar with a runaway kite needs some carefull consideration....
my opinion follows:

compulsory insurance!
money wont bring back the missing arm or leg or LIFE! but may help ease the pain!
attitude adjustments!
WE kiters dont own the beaches or the waters.....OTHER PEOPLE share them its THEIR planet too!
dont be a mindless egg consumed in your own need for self enjoyment with your sport....there are others around you that are also enjoying life on earth.....LOOK OUT FOR THEM!
and last but not least
WHEN YOU UNHOOK TO SELF LAND YOUR KITE...LET GO THE BAR!
kitecrazzzy
kitecrazzzy
WA
2184 posts
WA, 2184 posts
19 Dec 2006 1:25pm
lets not let this be a state government level thing as it becomes uncontrollable, cottesloe was a good example. you need WAKSA membership to kite there because there was a problem in the past. basically wait as long as possible before drawing out the "licence" card for a certain beach because if we have a licence we have too much other associated ****.
sinker
sinker
WA
255 posts
WA, 255 posts
19 Dec 2006 3:42pm
Hi All,

I just read this thread from end to end and to be honest, from a non-kiters viewpoint it has confirmed what I already thought about the kiting: it is potentially very dangerous to both participant and bystander, much more so than any other watersport: even very experienced kiters have serious accidents because of the unpredictable nature of the wind and equipment.

I don't think it should be banned because it is everyone's privilege to participate in dangerous sports as long as they don't impose on anyone else's feedom or safety.

However I don't see why kiting should not be regulated by licensing and by restriction to specific areas like jet-skiing or motor racing.

There have already been fatalities amongst participants and multiple serious injuries to others, it's only a matter of time before a non-kiter is killed and then it really will be all over.

I can only suggest that if you want to be involved in an exciting, fast and potentially dangerous ocean windsport that doesn't endanger anyone else you should swap your kite for a windsurfer and really live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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