foils in the surf

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122 posts
16 May 2005 12:09pm
I have been kiting on a liquid force LEI for 2 years now and am looking at buying a foil from Viokite in Japan.

I would like to know how the foils handle being dropped in the surf?

I learnt to snowkite this season on an ozone foil and found the ability to relaunch backwards or forwards from anywhere in the window was just fantastic.

For kitesurfing, I can only kite on beachs that have big surf most of the time,and, because I`m into wave riding i seem to be forever dropping my LEI in the impact zone because I`m focusing on riding the wave not the kite.
In light winds I always seem to luff my LEI after a few turns on a wave and that means a kitemare trying to relaunch in the impact zone.

Not that i think a foil won`t luff on me, but i think it might be a whole lot faster to relaunch, simply becuse you can relaunch backwards.

My only concern is what happens if it gets smashed by big waves?

Please, any feedback would be great to hear.
FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
16 May 2005 2:16pm
Foils will survive the surf a lot better then a LEI. When a LEI hits the surf the bladers can get trashed by the waves. Foils don't have that problem.

But it won't relaunch for a while and they weigh a ton when filled with water.
ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
16 May 2005 5:27pm
The reverse re-launch of FlySurfers is basically the same in the water as for snow or land.

The reliability, speed and simplicity of re-launching - even in big surf is one of the many reasons I love them. Those who know me will tell you that wave riding has always been my passion. A number of times I have been underwater after wiping out on a wave (too many times actually - such a kook ), felt the kite crash, unhooked and let the bar go to auto-reverse the kite up off the water before the wave even got anywhere near the kite. Once you get used to the technique you can pull the bar in, hook in, depower and fly the kite away before it even sits back down on it's TE. Or don't unhook to start with - just pull in on the brake lines to reverse it up high enough then release and fly it away!

The only thing you have to remember with any foil when it's in the water is never pull against it - if you don't fight it you'll hardly have any water in it - even if it's been hit by a wave.

And even if you stuff it all up and get a heap of water in the kite it will still re-launch if you have enough wind to get planing. FlySurfers also self-drain any water out of them within a minute or two max after re-launch.
fver
fver
WA
453 posts
WA, 453 posts
16 May 2005 7:56pm
Hi GA,

I am intermediaite level (well, I like to think so! ) and I ve got a 7 m FS Extacy (at least, I am sure about this one!).

I did a few sessions in light winds (<15 knots) these last weeks and undertook a few experiments to learn the behaviour of my kite in 'emergency' situations. I dipped the kite into the water or I folded it as much as I could or I tangled the lines or I filled it with water or I dipped it into very small waves (<0.5 m)......and tried to relauch it to see how it would behave .

I have to admit that I have been happily surprised by its behaviour becasue it unfolded, untangled, drained and relauched most of the times.

Of course there were a few misses when the wind was not strong enough to relaunch the kite too full of water or too folded.

These results do not strictly apply to you as I was not wave riding (not yet!) or in a significant surf (still not yet!!!), but they may give you some indication about the general behaviour of this foil.

I also want to add that I do not remember having problems in relauching my kite in wind strong enough for me to plan, since the beginning of my relatively short kiter life (a few months). There are 4 or 5 different basic technics for relauching the kite, depending on its position on the water and your preferences. They work very well.



Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Fred

waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
17 May 2005 8:26am
Hey Glaucus Atlanticus,
If you are luffing your kite while turning on waves, you're probably out-running your kite. I'm guessing you are parking your kite too high, speeding past it on the turns and hence the lines lose tension.

The best technique for riding waves is to fly the kite low, keeping the tension in the lines by letting the kite 'surf' the wave a second before you do.
ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
17 May 2005 9:27am
For those interested in the theory of wave riding you may like to check out http://members.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/WaveRideTheory.doc
Feedback is always welcome

The flying characteristics of your kite do have a significant impact on what you can and can't do on a wave without luffing or stalling. I agree with wave slave that many kites will not follow you fast enough down the line when you're using the wave energy instead of the wind&kite, however if you're just being pulled around on a wave by your kite you will find it difficult to stay in the critical section of the wave - a major judging criteria for wave riding.
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
17 May 2005 10:36am
Feedback to Ian.

Pick any two wavesailors and you'll notice their style and approach to riding waves will vary greatly. It is obvious from your pics that you like to ride backside going left on your directional board with the kite flying high. (Nice looking waves in the photos by the way).

For me, I like kiting Gnaraloo (or any left and right) on my frontside using my twin-tip with the kite low. (I also have the option of riding backside on the twinny but I prefer facing the wave).

I like to use small kites for wavesailing and I keep them low and send them hard and fast across the waveface to create apparent wind, hold the edge and draw tight radii.

And if you are being pulled around on a wave by your kite and not positioning yourself in the pit, you're probably overpowered.

No one approach is correct, just different.
niall barrett
niall barrett
WA
248 posts
WA, 248 posts
17 May 2005 10:59am
I agree with waveslave. Ians theories are spot on but complicated.

The simplest advice I have heard about riding waves is;
KEEP YOUR LINES TIGHT.

Obviously the only way to do this while hammering down the line [downwind] is to aggressively fly the kite back and forth across the window. The best wave kites turn quickly and with minimal air pressure as the apparent wind in the kite is often very light as you go down the line. I am not sure how well foils do this as I have never tried one.
gruezi
gruezi
WA
3464 posts
WA, 3464 posts
17 May 2005 11:05am
Ian, thanks for the post with all the valuable info.

What I would like to know is what do you do with the kite when you are about to get rolled by a big wave?

So far I have just been piddling around in small waves and I manage to keep my head up and focus on getting the kite to 12. However, the time is coming when I am going to get cracked by a bigger wave. I have never surfed in my life, and don't know the ocean that well. If the waves are bigger, do I go unhooked and then just throw the bar away when it happens and try avoid getting washed into the lines; or, do I stay hooked in and just let go of the bar and pray? What is the best survival strategy here for both rider and gear?

Perhaps your excellent wave riding guide could be filled out with some tips from you on how you deal with getting trashed......you obviously have a plan....or have you just been lucky?
Kitehard
Kitehard
WA
2782 posts
WA, 2782 posts
17 May 2005 5:47pm
Hey Nick,

When about to be nailed by large waves, especially like yesterday, in onshore conditions, is as you are about to go over the falls or cop a lip on the head, take a mental photo of where the kite is and what it is doing before you get rolled, then apply hard left or right to the bar so that the kite loops. This is just a matter of experience as to how long it takes the kite to perform a 360 and be back up to zenith again as often you will be underwater and not watching the kite.

The kite loop will pull you ahead of the wave or at least out the top of the foam and will keep your lines tight as Niall said. In onshore you will always be pushed under your kite and the kite will normally luff or at least slack line, which is bad if you are in really big surf and you get picked up and thrown over the falls . Had this happen a few times in heavy surf .... scary!

In side shore conditions, keep the kite out towards the ocean whenever you are about to be hit by a wave, if it is really big, ie dble overhead, kiteloop it towards the ocean and it will pull you through the wave itself and out the back side, worry about the board later, you don't really want to be withing cooee of your board in the big sets. Just concentrate on the kite and keep it flying, if you feel even for an instant, the lines go light, KITELOOP!. It is the answer to all your problems in the surf. The lines will sythe through a wave and pull you through green water.

Kiting big surf ie mast high at Margs or Gnaraloo and bigger, it is heaps less gnarly then say windsurfing or surfing because the kite will always pull you out of the sh#t, so long as the lines remain tight. I am more afraid of 6-8 foot on a surfboard than I am of 10+ on a kite.

If for some unthinkable reason you do drop your kite in the surf and it is about to get munched by a wave, throw the bar and activate your safety if it is a reride system. If you do not have a system that loads only one line, throw the lot and swim to shore, provided letting it go will not send it through a herd of swimmers or surfers (bad form). It will get washed up on the beach and you will be able to retrieve it (providing it is a beachie) For a reef, it depends upon rips, distance to shore, wind direction, available help etc.

If the waves are small, sometimes you can swim at the kite as a small wave hits it (1 foot), and not sustain damage, however I advise throwing the bar if you can, better to be safe than looking for a repair shop.

You picked one of the gnarliest days to try the surf too, the other day, a side shore day or at least side-on will be much easier as there are a bunch of skills you need to develop to handle onshore swell, especially if it is big like some of the sets were on Monday.

Keep it up though, all experience counts.
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
17 May 2005 11:32pm
If you get an opportunity try a Peter Lynn Venom they are great for wave riding.Here is the technique if you wipe out and get totally trashed by a wave ,let go of the bar while you are going through the spin cycle in the wave .When its all over your kite will be waiting for you in the air ready to go.The only way it will crash is if you put it in .Prior to the venom I preferred the performance of a LEI but did not enjoy the crashing ,destroyed kites and repairs.I can now enjoy similar performance with the stability factor safety and peace of mind in the waves.
Surgeon
Surgeon
NSW
134 posts
NSW, 134 posts
18 May 2005 9:07am
Hey Mr Float - how reliable is the auto zenith feature on the PL Kites?
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
18 May 2005 9:32am
The first arcs autozenithed very quickly.In fact probably too quickly.This could be annoying paticularly when riding toeside to have your hand on the wrongside of the bar to keep it low.The venom will generally stay put from wherever its last point was when you let go of the bar(whilst still hooked in)
I had a very dicey situation on the weekend where I boosted and started a kite loop realising that I was too close to shore .I pulled it out of the loop but lost my aware ness of where the kite was when I landed and went over the front of my board face first .I took my own advice and let go of the bar and the kite depowered out and was waiting there with no power at about 10 oclock.I thought I was going to be toast but it was all good in the end.
Moral of the story I was an idiot for trying such a move without much room to spare.the feature worked but I would not continue (or recommend)doing this stupid move thinking that my kite would save my butt everytime
ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
18 May 2005 8:16am
Nick, I agree with Darren's good detailed advice.

Having said that, the FlySurfers have an "auto-stabilzing" profile of the wing - this causes the kite to automatically drift back instead of luffing if the kite gets behind you. It's not foolproof though - the lines can go slack and the kite may still turn - but then the lines quickly take up tension again. I have found this feature good fun when you just want to purely use the energy of the wave ie ride with no tension in your lines at all - I certainly would NOT recommend this with most other kites. It also depends on the size and speed of the wave. The auto-stabilizer and quick reverse relaunch has also saved my sorry arse (and my kite) many times in big surf

If you keep your kite low when riding down the line then you'll find it much more difficult, if not impossible, to cut-back into the wind. I often ride down the line with my kite high, let the lines go slack, then cut back and pick up tension again.
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
18 May 2005 8:46am
Mr Float: re auto-zenith

A kite that tends to auto-zenith while riding would irritate me.
I prefer a kite that wants to dive if anything.......reason being is that I ride one-handed a lot with my windward arm (fronthand on bar) hanging free.

This one-handed method lets you point like a beagle while maintaining correct pressure on the bar.
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
18 May 2005 9:39am
Hey Ian,
I'm so focussed on lining-up the next 'off-the-lip' as I fang down the line that cutting-back isn't really an issue.

Slack lines freak me if I'm waveriding. Next time that happens I might try the Kitehard powerloop method and whip myself thru the lip.
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
18 May 2005 7:16pm
yep so do I .When cruising I just have my hand in the centre .There are quite a few times where I power it at the stop and ride no handed or surf the wave and not worry about the kite(no hands on the bar ).the kite stays where I put it .If it does get to close to the water it does tend to rise up a bit but does not race to the zenith like the old arcs did.
Again this is my experience ,if interested take one for a spin.
122 posts
21 May 2005 5:12pm
WOW. so I`m not alone in my wave riding follies.

some really good things to think about for me in all those great responses.

Ian you da man, the photos of you riding NW WA are amazing!!!!!!

My thoughts after reading all the ideas about foils in the surf are that I@m going to have to buy a secondhand one just to see what happens.

That way, If I completely trash it the first outing in big waves I won`t be crying myself to sleep. And If its all good in the surf I`ll also have a kite to snowkite with. Hooray!
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
21 May 2005 6:27pm
Rumour:
Foil flyers secretly relish the sound of inflatable kites going BANG in the surf.

Come on, fess up you soft sleeping-baggers!
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
21 May 2005 6:42pm
really great thread, plenty to think about on the next venture
thanks guys
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
21 May 2005 8:54pm

"Rumour:
Foil flyers secretly relish the sound of inflatable kites going BANG in the surf.

Come on, fess up you soft sleeping-baggers!"

No seccret really,just more money on repairs .(Shhh Dont tell anyone)
hmmm?Wonder why some shops bash foils ??Bummer pretty quiet in the repair dept around here this year.Doh!!
122 posts
23 May 2005 12:12pm


so I took all the advice from this thread and the new knowledge from ians` "wave ride guide" and applied it as best i could on the week-end.

I am super stoked to say that I had the most successfull wave riding session of my life]

The one big mistake I had not considered before was flying my kite to high so as soon as I dropped it down low I found I was not overtaking my kite and was also able to control the power of the kite while on the wave which is a first for me.

Thanks to everyone for helping me to become a better kitesufer and therefore a better person(snicker snicker snicker).
Or..........at least a happier person!
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
23 May 2005 1:03pm
How come Ian gets the kudos when 'slave advised keeping the kite low in the first place??????

Ian's 'confuse them with science' approach was a little too techo for me.
The riding of waves is mostly about flowing with the natural energy.
122 posts
23 May 2005 5:39pm
sorry"waveslave".

YOU DA MAN............yes you were the one that gave the singularly most usefull hint!

A genuine thank-you to you. Ian only got the good rap because I spent so long trying to actually understand his article.

Your advice was much easier to understand and then remember when I was in the surf yesterday!

10 points to the "WAVESLAVE". Please excuse my sweeping indiscretion this morning, I was to busy glowing from the good wind on sunday and suffering from Mondayitis at the same time.
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