If you can teach that monkey to ride a directional and throw a mega loop, then yes.
WTF

being a iko instructor sux big time,would never have don it if i knew how much time it takes away from my kiting time,not to mention all legalites and paper work,and having to deal with stupid iko main office.all that to get level 2.oh yer they love to take as much money as they can form you for stupid things

We're IKO and we taught a monkey to kite? He's pretty good actually, rocks out the purple surfboard strapless and throws HUUUUUGE mega loops all the time :D



On A Serious note, Watch 2 lessons at the same time, one teaching by the IKO standards and the other one a dodgey 'I can kite, so I can teach someone to kite'

See who gets up and going first, see who crashes themselves less, and see who crashes the kite more.... IKO will win every time...

Interesting thread...

I sense rumbling below (possibly in the sub-colon).

That is one funky monkey.

Let my accreditation lapse too.
I think the feedback system is just a money making exercise, as how is a beginner to know a really good lesson for a bad one unless it turns dangerous.
I'd love to give the iko some feedback about a guy teaching at point walter the other day. Gusty, shifty easterly winds, no permit to teach there, gets his two students to body drag right through 2 guys already kiting there, then as we were sailing upwind of his little posse over 80m away, he's giving us the signal to go somewhere else....
As he's doing this his student is 10-20m directly downwind of about 150 school kids on the spit. supposedly he is iko......Was his student aware of this negligence? I wonder what sort of feedback would have been given to the IKO

dave...... said...

Let my accreditation lapse too.
I think the feedback system is just a money making exercise, as how is a beginner to know a really good lesson for a bad one unless it turns dangerous.
I'd love to give the iko some feedback about a guy teaching at point walter the other day. Gusty, shifty easterly winds, no permit to teach there, gets his two students to body drag right through 2 guys already kiting there, then as we were sailing upwind of his little posse over 80m away, he's giving us the signal to go somewhere else....
As he's doing this his student is 10-20m directly downwind of about 150 school kids on the spit. supposedly he is iko......Was his student aware of this negligence? I wonder what sort of feedback would have been given to the IKO

Dave... I think you must mean his student was upwind of the 150 schoolkids?? No problem with him being downwind of them...

Agree with Darren though... cost of IKO is pretty insignificant to maintain an accredited international standard and cover your arse insurance wise. That Gold Coast "instructor" will have no defence no matter how experienced or good an instructor he may be as the recognised standard is IKO. Insurance costs will seem a pittance to the likely payout also...

mikeb said...

Cant agree more with Darren and PADI,

GROW UP

+1

It's called 'professionalism'.

dave...... said...


I'd love to give the iko some feedback about a guy teaching at point walter the other day. Gusty, shifty easterly winds, no permit to teach there, gets his two students to body drag right through 2 guys already kiting there, then as we were sailing upwind of his little posse over 80m away, he's giving us the signal to go somewhere else....
As he's doing this his student is 10-20m directly downwind of about 150 school kids on the spit. supposedly he is iko......Was his student aware of this negligence? I wonder what sort of feedback would have been given to the IKO

Hey Dave,

If you see this kind of thing going on, then the only way they will be reported is if YOU report him. Take their name and send a report to [email protected] If you don't do it, and everyone else reckons someone else will do it, then you'll get what you have ..... no one keeping an eye on the standards here in WA.

If I see that kinda thing happening on our beach, I go straight down and speak to the instructor and find out their name and then ask them to move on before I call council rangers. I then report them to IKO if they claim to be IKO.

I have had people claim they are IKO and upon investigation, they are not! No point in complaining about it if you aren't prepared to do something to remedy the situation.

Just food for thought


Good winds,

Hey Dave,

If you see this kind of thing going on, then the only way they will be reported is if YOU report him. Take their name and send a report to [email protected] If you don't do it, and everyone else reckons someone else will do it, then you'll get what you have ..... no one keeping an eye on the standards here in WA.

If I see that kinda thing happening on our beach, I go straight down and speak to the instructor and find out their name and then ask them to move on before I call council rangers. I then report them to IKO if they claim to be IKO.
Thanks for the advice darren, I will 'cause what I saw was plain negligence, unfortunately due to time constraints I didnt confront him, but did find out his/her name before I left and who he was teaching through. I wont just do nothing as this was crazy stuff and an accident waiting to happen. With a whole primary school building sand castles on the spit I couldnt belive what I was seeing.

I think it gives people who want to teach the wizdom of experience that they lack in teaching from the oldies who invented IKO. If anything it gives you piece of mind that the way you teach is a proven safe and reasonable method that if you follow, would keep you safe from law suits. And if you don't do the course and instruct, that's fine but you could be more likely in that instance to perform and be classified as " reckless" so that IF someone did get hurt under your instruction THEN they could possibly sue...

If you can take all reasonable steps to take the risk out, then if you didn't do the course I would suggest that you would need a lot of experience kiting yourself in all condtions and places. It's really all about keeping the sport as safe as possible. Also I think if you are teaching a mate, and no money has exchanged hands....so there is no contract... I think this makes a big difference and there is no way of getting sue'd in this case.

Hi 'Slave,

Been a while since you have taken a shot with some witty repartee. Just for the record, we do not teach in 30 knots, although I know many schools in Maui for instance that do, and provided adequate safety precautions are in place it can work safely and be productive to the student and school.

As for never failing a student Huh???? students are not graded therefore cannot be failed, they stop lessons when they feel, we cannot make them have lessons. They just dont progress to the next step until deemed competent.

If you mean failing instructors, yes I have failed many instructors, some of which did make up work or assessments to improve the area of their deficiency and then finally pass. Others didn't ......

I don't want to see schools or instructors removed, I want them to all become legal to prevent the sort of action Dave was describing. There are not enough legal schools or instructors to cope with demand in WA, the last thing we want is longer waiting lists.

Good winds,

Hi Spooky Luke,

If money changes hands, then you become a professional and it is deemed a business. If you are not earning money or reward, then it is teaching a friend and you or the council cannot be help liable for injury or damages. Even a hobby business (earning less than $50K) is still a professional business and requires an ABN and to abide by the law. So the short answer is, YES, IT IS ILLEGAL.

You do not have to be an IKO instructor to be a professional, but as you use public land and public waterways, then you need a "Trading in public places license" and also any additional permits for specific lands you use as deemed necessary by local council or waterways or CALM or whatever government body holds rights to govern business use of the waters or public lands you use.

To be able to get these permits you must show a certain level of accreditation to a recognised standard to council and then produce Insurance for $10,000,000 for Public Liability and Professional Indemnity, indemnifying the school and council.

You will not get insurance without an accreditation such as IKO. As IKO has been around the longest and is the only globally recognised standard, it happens to be them that councils want you to be accredited by.

Yes it is a royal pain in the arse to get the permits, and yes, dealing with councils and government agencies can be massively time consuming and painful, not to mention expensive, but to be legal, you gotta do it!

I hope this answers your question,

Good winds,

Hi Spooky Luke,

Regardless of how much you earn, if you are accepting money or reward from the public in public places you need to have insurance, permits and licenses. If you operate without a license, you are breaking the law.

The difference between hobby businesses and businesses is the $50K barrier, Earn more than $50K and you need to register for GST and you will need an ABN and a TFN.

It's not about the Tax or the business entity. It's about conducting services to the public on public land without consent and permits from the local government. Thats where you break the law and can be fined, I think it is $5,000 for a first offense.

If you want to be a legitimate business operating legally, then I would suggest you contact the small business help centre in your local area, ask for some advice and then speak to the Dept of parklands and commercial operators team at your local council. Who knows, if they want to attract tourism to a deserted beach, they may be really helpful and want you to set up, making things easy. Or they may not want a bar of kitesurfing schools in their shire, you'll only know if you ask them. Just make an enquiry with them and see what they want.

No council will allow you to operate without consent, without insurance and permits if trading with the public on public spaces. No Council will accept that amount of risk of liability.

Good winds,

"I think the feedback system is just a money making exercise, as how is a beginner to know a really good lesson for a bad one unless it turns dangerous".

Interesting comments guys...... I still have reservations on the iko process of "feedback". Feedback, both positive and negative is usually given to a beginner from someone much more qualified, usually with some formal qualifications. This shapes the beginner's sensory imput and motor movements to acheive a particular skill. Beginners learn faster and make less mistakes from a qualified instructor or coach because they are usually UNAWARE of what they are doing wrong.

Again my point is that the iko system of using beginners to rate instructors is not really valid. Do beginners know right of way, upwind/downwind distances, lesson procedure, or when an accident is waiting to happen?

ANyway I did let my accreditation lapse, but in my opinion, I still got my money's worth from doing the course with Darren. He was very professional, informative, and even if you never instruct, your kiting will improve. Darren also was very aware of both $ and standards, he didnt "fail" anyone, but did ask a couple of wannabe instructors to come down to his school and re-do parts of the course that were not up to scratch so he could pass them. Darren also is very clear about safety and wind ranges to teach in.
"It must be a slow week for the aussie kite-dragging school.
How about a list of IKO examiners who teach newbies in 30 knots and never fail a student ?
*wink". might improve your kiting too.......

you can say that again...