08 REBEL VS HELIX

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kevinwd1
kevinwd1
QLD
125 posts
QLD, 125 posts
11 Aug 2007 8:26pm
Just wondering if anyone has flown both these kites, and how do they compare? I'm looking at upgrading this year, and am interested in feedback on these two kites.

TIA.

dazza5172
dazza5172
SA
311 posts
SA, 311 posts
11 Aug 2007 9:13pm
Completely differnt feel altogether.

What have you been riding and what do you want out of a kite?

what type of conditions?

Daz
DPH
DPH
NSW
45 posts
DPH DPH
NSW, 45 posts
11 Aug 2007 11:07pm
Good thread Kevin, was thinking the same thing.

The other one I want to throw in the mix is the F-One Bandit. Tossing up between the 3 of them for a new 08 kite at this point. I have been mainly riding a 14m Rebel which has been great, but after riding a 12m Rebel as well have realised just how slow the turning speed is on the 14m.

Am going to try them all out for myself at some point if I can, but would be interested in hearing comparisons from others as the kites become more readily available.

Dazza - If you have do have some insight into a few of them, I am after a freeride kite for riding a twin tip in mainly choppy conditions. Just getting into some big boosts and a few hooked in tricks but no wave riding at this point. What do you think?

Cheers,

Dan
kevinwd1
kevinwd1
QLD
125 posts
QLD, 125 posts
11 Aug 2007 11:12pm
Currently using 2005 10m and 14m Cabrinha C02 kites. I’ve been kiting for one season after years of windsurfing and surfing. I want a kite that boosts well and gives me good control in choppy conditions and has a good wind range. Also would like to get into the surf one day .Not really into doing tricks at the moment. This season I want to master going toeside so I can do long sweeping turns when changing direction, i.e. reproduce some of the feelings of surfing when in flat water. I like the simplicity and safety aspects of five line kites, so I'm looking at either the Rebel or Naish Alliance.
cwamit
cwamit
WA
1194 posts
WA, 1194 posts
11 Aug 2007 9:53pm
I too am looking at either an 8 meter alliance or a 7 meter rebel. can't see the helix having same bar feedback and steering like the 07 rebel have because pulleys on kites tend to screw that up a little from my limited experience. anyhow hope to hear some feedback of both kites ...em hopefully will have some info since she works for both kite brands through distribution or something ..mssged her earlier tonight before I seen this posting with same questions .
tino
tino
443 posts
443 posts
11 Aug 2007 11:00pm
You should also think about the JN Wild Thing2, has heaps of range, boosts big but also pretty good in waves. The guys behind the kite came up with the early Cabs and North Rhinos. JN have a few more kites coming out early September too - Prima Donna2 (freestyle) and the DaVinci (bow style). Most kites are good, but some are better - its what works for you!
em
em
318 posts
em em
318 posts
12 Aug 2007 9:28am
Funny, it makes 2 weeks I'm waiting for this post to turn up, lol.
I'm hoping -please please please- to be able to take the Rebel 08 out this arvo (I know I know, eternal optimistic!), and I will then be able to comment on how it compares to the Helix, even though... I'd already have the tendancy, having flown both the Rebel and the Rhino 07, to say that it would certainly make more sense to compare the Rhino and the Helix than the Rebel and the Helix. I would agree with Daz on that: different animals!!!
I did find, trying the Helix powered up, that it had a similar grunt to the Rhino (in may be less radical though) whereas the Rebel is a much more gentle and forgiving kite... This is strictly based on my experience with the 07 products though... Hopefully I can get back to you tonight knowing what I'm talking about... Fingers crossed!!!
Kitesurf Aus
Kitesurf Aus
QLD
8 posts
QLD, 8 posts
12 Aug 2007 11:59am
DAN
Ive flown 07 rebel 12 and 14 .The new 08 14 is heaps better than the 07 14 and more stable than the 07 12mtr I would say its a good mix of both feels very similar to the 07 12 but more grunt .havent flown helix yet but if you get a chance try the bandit its different.

good luck
george
NSW, 1613 posts
12 Aug 2007 12:40pm
NEWSFLASH!!!!

Em is at this minute about to set up the 08 Rebel and Helix 12m2 at Long Reef, so get down there and make your own mind up!

Cheers,

Windsurfnsnow
trevor1
trevor1
WA
598 posts
WA, 598 posts
12 Aug 2007 7:02pm
and ...?
Buschy
Buschy
QLD
188 posts
QLD, 188 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:40pm
and...
dazza5172
dazza5172
SA
311 posts
SA, 311 posts
13 Aug 2007 2:45pm
Wow I knew this time would come, The best thing I can say is that I can really only comment on the Rebel as I have it so dialled in and one ride on the Helix in outrageous wind would make any comparison difficult.

Now this is no reflection on the Helix at all its pure Rebel 2008 juice:

CW Amit - Don't go the 7m Rebel unless you intend to ride 30 knots plus, if you have room in the quiver for this great, otherwise go the 9m Rebel as it holds heaps of wind up to 35 knots for me easy, I have only seen them topped out at 39 knots however at that still being ridden in to the beach to land. (That was when I was topping out on the 7m Rebel)

The new 2008 9m Rebel will be perfect for that direct power punch feel and cruzin comfort. They can be ridden unhooked and set up like a C kite easy if that's what you want

DHP the turning speed on the 2008 is quicker for the larger models, there are distinct improvement reasons for this and they are also gruntier in the low end. I never had an issue with the 12m turning speed and I have crew kiteloopin them here all the time. I can't comment on them as it is the only size I have never flown (not for long as I can get the Demo in a while)

Again on the weekend I have flown the 9m 2007 and the 10m 2008 back to back and seriously if you want a grunty, harness pulling kite that wants to go and is where you want it all the time, it is a super kite, I fully stake my reputation on it.

Boost, insane, rocket lift, top end comfort, just depower and cruize out into the line up,

turning speed of the kites is now perfect

totally adjustable for C feel or SLE feel

no pullies

5th line safety release

ride a smaller canopy with similar power if you want to, more efficient IMO

If you can test one don't hesitate but don't expect to give it back without shedding a tear.

Oh yeah I can buy any kite I want to, I don't have to buy Rebels

Daz
airush geoff
airush geoff
974 posts
974 posts
13 Aug 2007 1:30pm
I think the helix is an awesome kite, I felt instantly comfortable on it but still each time I go out I am getting better acquainted with it. Rode a 14m helix in some nasty winds- really gusty but the helix behaved super well. The jumps with this thing are incredible, so soft floaty and big. Not sure if there was an 08 rebel out at the time but ?
em
em
318 posts
em em
318 posts
13 Aug 2007 5:30pm
quote:
Originally posted by Buschy

and...


review coming tomorrow: got to fly the Rebel yesterday in super light wind and today totally powered up... I now have had both scenarios with the Helix and the Rebel... So ready to give my 2 cent worth opinion, thing is.... I just got back home from the greatest wave riding session I've had in months, and I'm in absolute bliss, but too knakered to type!...
harks98
harks98
NSW
102 posts
NSW, 102 posts
14 Aug 2007 12:32pm
come on Em the suspense is killing me
em
em
318 posts
em em
318 posts
14 Aug 2007 1:09pm
OK!
Before I start commenting, I need to put things back into the right context:this review is based solely on a PERSONAL appreciation. I've tried both the Helix and the Rebel 08 on very light wind (not possible to get planing, pure kite flying), and in powered up condition (20-25 knots). Now, main difference in the conditions, I tried the Helix on flat water whereas I was in waves with the Rebel. Both 12m2. Important to mention in this review, these days I'm around 55 kilos max (which has totally affected the way I hold on to my kites at their top end).
I really thought I was totally sold on the Helix after having flown it, but after flying the Rebel 08 yesterday, I've found myself really confused!
They're both fantastic kites, but a comparison will be really hard as it truly is comparing pears and apples!
They totally are different kites, and I reckon they will suit totally different types of riders.
In very light wind, the Helix shows a superb stability. No flapping, dropping off the sky. I would say that the Rebel's got less grunt on its low end, while still being lighter to stir in light conditions. However, was really stoked with the Rebel's 08 low end improvement compared to last year's: it definitely has more grunt and power in light conditions. Both fly beautifully, but their feel is really different. The Helix still feels like a 7 struts kite: more powerful but it did feel slightly heavier on the bar than the Rebel in light breeze. But in the same wind condition, the Helix was still getting me planing when I was struggling with the Rebel.
I'm no light wind fan any way, so let's go now to the real stuff!
Powered up, the Helix offer that magnificent grunt powerful kites do: huge pull, very reactive, constant power, and an amazing stability.
As I've said, I thought I was sold on the Helix until I tried the Rebel 08 yesterday, but important thing there: I have been a huge fan of the Rebel 07 and have flown it for months. Therefor, I'm a lot more used to handle the Rebel than the Helix. But yeah, flying the Rebel 08 yesterday was like meeting an old friend again, and I still think this kite is fantastic. The main thing that struck me right away was the turning speed: a lot less input is needed in the bar to get the kite to turn. The Rebel 08 turns ridiculous fast, it's a rocket! I believe the Helix can turn as fast, but it would require more bar input. The Rebel moves like a shooting star (definitely faster than last year's!)! Both kite just FEEL different. It's really hard to compare them cause it's like comparing a Ferrari and a Porche basically! 2 excellent kites, but with different acceleration, bar feel, way to move and behave up in the air.
The Rebel still shows its incredible stability, but as hard as it is to believe, I reckon the Sigma shape and the geo-tech on the Helix push the stability up in the air one step further....In the gustiest conditions, that kite just doesn't move the slightest bit. The Rebel is super stable as well (it was the most stable kite I had ever flown last year!), it stands up to its reputation, but it seemed to me that it was still more sensitive to unsteady wind than the Helix. The Helix is just amazing on this matter:it doesn't move at all.
Boost wise, they're different as well: different lift, different ways to throw the kite, different hang time... Jumping with the Rebel is a lot easier (to me, but that is only cause I've been flying this kite a lot more than the Helix): you don't even need to edge with the Rebel, just sheet in, zoom, gone! The jumps with the Helix are similar to the rhino's jumps: old school style, edge really hard and hold on!!! Super for fully loaded jumps. The rebel is more straightforward, the helix more radical... So there too, they're definitely different. The hang time is different, with the Rebel providing a faster lift (one gets pulled instantly), but letting you down much faster as well! The Helix with its 2 additional struts offers a lift thats more progressive, but the way down is much smoother. I do love the lift and gentle way down with the Sigma... As an hybrid, the Rebel still offers the lift of a C-kite (straight up!), while the Helix jumps much more like an SLE. In height, my judgment is biased due to the fact I'm so used to jump with the Rebel... So did go higher with the Rebel, but I'm fully aware this is only because I know how to work that kite. I really want to fly the Helix more to find out what I can get out of it, and I do not doubt I can achieve the same height with it... There again, different animals, it's all about how one communicates with them!
I've loved jumping with both, giving a big thumb up for the soft landings the Helix offers, and the immediate lift given by the Rebel.
So far, it's still all good for both, they just really behave differently. So really hard to prefer one to the other!
Now, in waves... That's where my crush went for the Rebel... I wouldn't have wanted to be on anything else than this kite yesterday. Lightening turning speed, instant depower, it is just the most PERFECT kite for wave riding!!! I ride hooked and strapped (I leave the cool stuffs for people with bigger arms than me !), and I don't think I could have achieved such turning speed with the Helix... There again, let's not forget I'm used to the Rebel's behavior, and did not get the chance to play with the Helix in waves... I know JB loves it, so it's got to be just as good as waves are his favorite playground, but for someone much less experienced than him in surf, the Rebel seemed so easy to handle! Super forgiving, depowering in a flash, it just made everything easy. The Rebel has always been known for being a super forgiving kite, easy to handle. The Helix is a lot more radical, it's more aggressive, the Rebel has a softer temper, its versatile and more forgiving.
The Helix has that potential of a kite easy to use, but that will deliver the performance requested by the rider. Its potential is huge, and basically, this is the kind of kite that will just adjust to what it's been asked! The Rebel this year has this tiny bit of spice that certain riders (me included) thought it was lacking last year after riding it for months. This year's model has gained in personality and can now get to a similar feel to the Vegas.
The Helix seem to be supplying more grunt whereas the Rebel turned much faster.
The two main differences I came to highlight were the stability for the Helix (it doesn't get more steady than this in gusty wind!), the turning speed goes to the Rebel. I reckon for everything else, they're just too different...
Torch lovers will find all they ever loved about Naish kites into the sigma, with a massive increase of depower, an unbeatable stability, a relaunch even faster, and really really smooth handling with gorgeous hang time. the Helix is fantastic for hardcore riders, but it would be perfectly suitable for complete beginners as well: anyone can get out of that kite what he wants.
Rebel lovers will find a new model, with all the characteristic that made us love the Rebel 07, with an increased grunt on the low end for the 08 model (definitely pulling a lot more in light wind), even more depower (55kilos on 12m2 in 25 knots yesterday on a strapped surfboard and doing just fine!), increased turning speed, and still those crazy jumps and wonderful handling of gusts... It's the ultimate "life made easy" kite, with however more temper than last year's model. (and true, Cwamit, you don't need a 7m, I agree with Daz!).
Relaunch on both kites is easy as and super fast.... (but different as well as the kites do behave differently, the Helix relaunching like an SLE, when the Rebel still swings back into the edge of the window before going back up)
I'm not sure this review helps, as I recognize myself I now really don't know which one to go for!!!
I love both, it's going to be really hard to make my mind up (it just means the Demo shelf is going to live in my car, basically, lol!!!)
The way I see it, people need to FLY these kites and work out which one suits them better, but it mainly comes down to SLE or 5th line, how aggressively one wants to ride and what main use one wants to do of their kite...
I'm really curious to know how heavier riders felt about these two kites as a 90 kilos rider would have a totally different appreciation... Anyone???
Gone to dark side
Gone to dark side
NSW
394 posts
NSW, 394 posts
14 Aug 2007 3:27pm
Thanks EMLooking for a 9m this year could be the 9m rebel this year.Need a new 9m for this summer down windders.
dazza5172
dazza5172
SA
311 posts
SA, 311 posts
14 Aug 2007 3:12pm
Hey EM thanks for having a crack at the comparison, I just found them so different that I didn't want to try after only one Helix session and I really want to try the Alliance being a 5th line set up.

And I liked the review and agreed with a lot

funny though because
quote:
The Rebel has always been known for being a super forgiving kite, easy to handle. The Helix is a lot more radical, it's more aggressive, the Rebel has a softer temper, its versatile and more forgiving.


I really feel that the 2008 Rebels can provide a very agressive ride whilst keeping the forgiveness. On the other hand the Helix felt to me to provide the softer temper,... ? subjectivity make reviews hard hey?


Daz
sloth69
sloth69
NSW
15 posts
NSW, 15 posts
14 Aug 2007 5:30pm
Thanks Em,
Now i think I'm definitely looking at a REBEL this year. I fly 15m 05 fuel in 10 -20 kts, weighing in at around 90 kgs ( depends on which pub i've been to.)
The rebel sounds like my style, big air, and waves.

My summer ne winds avg about 15- 25 kts. riding a directional Naish mutant 142.

I'm thinking probably a 14M 08 rebel. Thoughts anyone?
sloth69
sloth69
NSW
15 posts
NSW, 15 posts
14 Aug 2007 5:33pm
Oop-s, forgot something,
Is there something wierd with the bar, ie a newer one coming?
Have I got the right kite?
If i have, is the bar a freebie upgrade, or do we have to pay.
Do we need it/ is it that much better?
em
em
318 posts
em em
318 posts
14 Aug 2007 3:54pm
quote:
Originally posted by sloth69

Oop-s, forgot something,
Is there something wierd with the bar, ie a newer one coming?
Have I got the right kite?
If i have, is the bar a freebie upgrade, or do we have to pay.
Do we need it/ is it that much better?


I take it you're talking about the Rebel?
The 2008 North bar hasn't arrived in Australia yet (it will be in late September I think). I've flown the 12m2 2008 with the 07 5th element bar. I'm looking forward trying it with the NEW bar (it is a new 5th element bar, with a different iron heart etc) and see if it makes any difference...
And, not too sure I've understood what you said about the "right kite" ( If it has 08 written on it and looks like a Rebel, more likely yes! ), but I'm afraid "freebie" is a gorgeous concept that saddenly doesn't apply to the real world!
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
14 Aug 2007 5:12pm
Great review Em, thank-you.

I too am enjoying the spoils of my new shiny 12m Rebel 08. I think i will wait to see how the Helix technology evolves.

The Rebel in my opinion hasn't changed dramatically but the tweaks have improved an already great kite. Better low end, improved turning speed and this year it just feels so much more grunty.
crakas
crakas
QLD
468 posts
QLD, 468 posts
14 Aug 2007 8:07pm
EM,

Nice review...sound like awesome kites...

Cheers,

Barrie

"So many good kites and so few fun vouchers"
cwamit
cwamit
WA
1194 posts
WA, 1194 posts
14 Aug 2007 7:24pm
Thanks em - sweet review not easy to give a balance reveiw on either kites, would still like to try the alliance I think it would be more close to a rebel in style... but then as said - the rebel is a great kite so will prob go with that anyhow.

Was thinking with the 7 meter 08 rebel that it would be better for unhooked kite "wave" riding compared to say a 9 meter rebel, de-power then easier to whip around in 17 to 22 knot winds which is what is down this side of the country on an average sesh in summer, the alliance looks more c shape which going off forum comments c shape would still be the best for unhooked riding so looking forward to a comparison of both of these kites (rebel and alliance) - Felix look out there's a new kook I mean kid on the block..Well I can dream cant I?

Like you told me already though - probably can’t go wrong with either kites and since I love the 07 rebel the 08 could only improve!

Decisions! Decisions!
em
em
318 posts
em em
318 posts
15 Aug 2007 6:03am
quote:
Originally posted by cwamit

Thanks em - sweet review not easy to give a balance reveiw on either kites, would still like to try the alliance I think it would be more close to a rebel in style...

It is really hard to compare them, they feel so different and thats where it gets really confusing: two kites so different that both feel great, as I've said, I've got myself confused doing this review. Now I agree with you, certainly that the Alliance will be closer to the Rebel's style, simply based on the fact it is a 5th line as well...

quote:
Originally posted by cwamit

Was thinking with the 7 meter 08 rebel that it would be better for unhooked kite "wave" riding compared to say a 9 meter rebel, de-power then easier to whip around in 17 to 22 knot winds which is what is down this side of the country on an average sesh in summer

The kite size is your decision and I am aware that 25 knots in Sydney aren't 25 knots on your side, however...55kg on 12m2 in 25 knots on a surfboard over here. I will stick to my gun: I really don't think you need a 7m2...
I may here make you benefit of one of my f*ck up... I did buy a 7m2 Rebel last year, thinking the way you do... I tried it once. It was a howling SW at Doll's point (keen me, at 5:30AM!!!), and the charts were reading an average of 25-30knots gusting to 40.... I couldn't believe it, but I was underpowered most of my session... That 7m basically felt perfect... during the gusts! I clearly remembered riding a 7m2 C-kite in similar conditions a year earlier in Boat Harbour, being more powered up than a bloody supersonic plane!!! But that morning, being on a Rebel, I would have needed a 9m undoubtfully!
The Rebel has such a massive depower than a size like a 7m is only going to be suitable for 35knots + riding or perfect for instructing, eventually suitable for riders even lighter than me... But other than that, you will be happy as with a 9m....
Me think!

quote:
Originally posted by cwamit

Like you told me already though - probably can’t go wrong with either kites and since I love the 07 rebel the 08 could only improve!
Decisions! Decisions!


I know... I'm scratching my head as well now....
Poor relative, I do agree the Rebel doesn't bring anything dramatically new like the Helix does (hard to beat!), but if you ask me, I really thought the Rebel was such a perfect kite last year that I did wonder if North was going to be able to improve such a wonderful toy... Matter of fact, they have: more grunt on the bottom end, more turning speed and improved stability, while still feeling and behaving like the kite we all had a crush on last year... From my perspective, it's thumb up to North: it is a new kite with sill all the characteristics we've loved about it last year... I would have hated to fly the Rebel 08 and not reconizing the Rebel's feel! I see it as its trademark... The Rebel 08 is still our little friend... With some added temper, which is exactly what was missing to last year's model...
The Helix is such a fantastic, performant and new looking product it will self itself on its own I reckon... And I agree with JB: it does sort of make any other kite look like a dinosaur!!!
Thing is, we're now back to Barrie's point: we now all wish we were millionaires living in an endlessly windy place... Sigh...
That would help wouldn't it?
rusty7
rusty7
QLD
504 posts
QLD, 504 posts
15 Aug 2007 9:16am
sloth in reply to your question on 14m for a 90 kg rider.
i weigh in at 96 and ride a 14m 07 rebel. I have had this kite out in over 30 knots and still had good control over the kite (got pulled off my edge plenty) but it is a very good 1 kite quiver.My thought is that you can't be to extreme when surfing towards the kite as the 14 is a little slower to respond than smaller kites. As long as you don't let the lines sag to much it is fine. I really do rate my 14m though. Board choice is important I ride bigger boards, 142flx more recently 145 nobile in light winds and also have a 138 flx but haven't used it much yet.
sloth69
sloth69
NSW
15 posts
NSW, 15 posts
15 Aug 2007 9:03pm
Rusty7,
thanks for the info. Ive decided the 14m 08 is for me. I might wait a week or two and check out the 08 bar. If im going to upgrade , might as well get everything new.
Has anyone got a link or some info on the 08 bar, ie whats different.
thanks in advance
Finzee
Finzee
11 posts
11 posts
16 Aug 2007 7:01am
Hey sloth you are gonna luv this kite. Reports say that it turns faster than the 07 and has more botom end. So you can't go wrong.
Worth waiting for the bar as I believe there are some good changes in the lines that go through the bar and also the hole is tapered both sides and the stopper system has been improved. I found that the stopper didn't really hold my 14 well on the 07 bar set up. Good idea to wait for the 08 bar.
cammck
cammck
QLD
108 posts
QLD, 108 posts
16 Aug 2007 2:01pm
Hey Em I have a pretty straight forward question. I did not like the rebel at all, I just could not figure out the jumps. I like to egde hard and send the kite way back in the window. I love the T3 and have a 12 and a 10. Cutting to the chase, is the helix more like a C kite or a bow. I know heaps of guys that are apprehensive because they think that because the kite has a briddle it will fly like a bow.

Camo
stormrider
stormrider
SA
75 posts
SA, 75 posts
16 Aug 2007 2:52pm
hi camo,i'm dialled into naish ravens...when i rode the helix,i re-directed it the same way...a heap of boardspeed,and hard back through the window...impressive results,considering the helix runs on 20 metre lines...i really thought no kite could cut it in the jumping dept compered to raven,but sigma series seems dialled in..try it yourself,you'll see!
cammck
cammck
QLD
108 posts
QLD, 108 posts
16 Aug 2007 3:29pm
Thanks Stormrider. That is what I was hoping to hear.

Cam
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