Facts From Gov

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not a saksa
not a saksa
SA
4 posts
SA, 4 posts
5 Nov 2008 10:37am
Document 08MTR/2459
The Hon Patrick Conlon MP
3 Nov 2008

(Quote)
Kite boards are classified as vessels and therefore subject to the legislative requirements of the Harbors and Navigation Act 1993.

observe
observe
2 posts
2 posts
5 Nov 2008 1:02pm
If kites are considered to be vessels, then it is mandatory for all who kiteboard to wear a pfd

"A Personal Flotation Device (PFD), suitable for the type and area of operation must be carried on the vessel for every person on board. In addition, any person water skiing must be wearing a PFD. A PFD must also be worn at all times by occupants of canoes, kayaks, sailboards and similar small unpowered vessels, when kite surfing or operating a personal watercraft (PWC)."

I wonder if the posts pushing the vessel theme are somehow connected to a commercial entity with an interest in increasing sales of pfd's?
jarradm
jarradm
SA
137 posts
SA, 137 posts
5 Nov 2008 2:46pm
yeh maybe "not a saksa" wants all kiters to suffer by encouroging the authorites to police the use of PFD's to fund his back poket.

futher more....does "not a saksa" even kite???
Hobie1463
Hobie1463
SA
449 posts
SA, 449 posts
5 Nov 2008 3:55pm
I'm just curious does this mean I could kite at adelaide sailing club?
thefish
thefish
SA
48 posts
SA, 48 posts
5 Nov 2008 4:07pm
Confusion Reigns!!!

Nice Work 'not a saksa'
Hobie1463
Hobie1463
SA
449 posts
SA, 449 posts
5 Nov 2008 4:41pm
Not really, I know the real answer as I have personally been told by the CASA inspector, If you continue to fly your kite in this area you will be fined or arrested. Just wanted " not a Saksa" to answer this.

Thanks
tino
tino
443 posts
443 posts
5 Nov 2008 4:08pm
My opinion is that SAKSA do a fantastic job at keeping our beaches open and the sport growing from strength to strength. Personally I haven't kited at Henley in ages due to the numbers but its due to SAKSA that you can kite there in the first place.

When I'm teaching I stay away from Henley as that is what was asked by SAKSA (its safer for everyone that way.)

I think "Not a SAKSA" should contact a senior member of SAKSA and lay his cards on the table. Plus hiding as “private name” is just a way of being all talk and no balls. HTFU “Not a SAKSA”. Its people like "Not a SAKSA" and other instructors who ignore the rules that give kiting and kiters a bad name.
mr pinch
mr pinch
SA
6 posts
SA, 6 posts
5 Nov 2008 9:43pm
All I see is facts from “not a saksa “
And abuse from all the SAKSA thugs.

Go Saksa….. fools

jordy
jordy
SA
451 posts
SA, 451 posts
5 Nov 2008 9:49pm
Oh Mr Pinch you are so, so smart. I wish I was you!!
tommy69
tommy69
26 posts
26 posts
5 Nov 2008 8:58pm
Hey I am over this.. Not a SAKSA, Your real name is Ben from A1 Kite boarding and Ben your second name is Mr Pinch.

Adelaide is the best place to kite in aussie land. So many good crew and its chilled out.

So Ben You know that you cant instruct at Henley, CASA over rules all other Gov dept including Marine and Harbors/ Council. The reason CASA have problem with kiters is that. The kites all come up on the radar screens, because we are in the flight line of small aircraft. Boats don’t show on the radar because there are at water line. Where kites are approximately 23-30mtrs above water line.


Please stop all this crap on the forum, Its turning Seabreeze forums into what other states are like, Other states look at SA forums as fun and chilled. Please keep that way.


JOYRIDER
JOYRIDER
705 posts
705 posts
5 Nov 2008 9:22pm
it seems to me (as a inocent bystander) that this whole seabreeze thing, is just a place to slug at each other, whilst not having the balls to do it face to face and in an orderly manner.

it seems there is obvious heat between opposing parties, so maybe a treaty should be met and all parties involved should meet up, change up and enjoy this ever changing sport.

if certain charcters wish to ride/or teach in "black zones" then they can do so and carry the shadow of justice on there back.

can everyone please just get the **** over it and shut up.
its ruining my daylight hours enjoyed at the beach.

sincere thanks.
observe
observe
2 posts
2 posts
5 Nov 2008 9:58pm
Good logic Tommy. (re his comments about this public bickering and negativity on seabreeze)

Until today i've never felt the need to comment. but for the sake of the sport and continuing to see if grow in SA a few things need to be said.

1. irrespective of whether you are a saksa member or not logically, henley is not a place to kite if you are new or giving lessons. It's too busy with experienced kiters, and the general community.

Before anyone gets up in arms - Consider how you may have learnt to drive a car or taught your children. I know my parents took me on a sunday (in the days before 7 day shopping) to a shopping centre car park with no one around until i could start, stop and safely control the vehicle and it wasn't til i could do that they let me onto the road. Why.... it was safer for both myself and the general community?

As an instructor you'd have a duty of care to your clients, and the community. As a new person to the sport, common sense says learn to control the kite before you get into a crowded space. If i was a responsible and professional teacher, i'd want to give my students the best chance to learn control and safety in the initial stages, build their confidence in a safer more controlled environment. Control the controllable and use common sense. No one wants to see anyone get hurt, or be scared and not come back.

2. I'm a neutral in this but I know most of the SAKSA crew, and they are enthusiastic, volunteering their time to improve the profile of the sport and build relationships with key stakeholders in order to ensure kiting can continue in metro Adelaide.

If people have felt bullied and harassed, I’m sure that is not the intent. Like workplaces and other sporting clubs, SAKSA is made up of a wide mix of people, with different levels of communication skills. Some more articulate than others. I know in my workplace I’ve been a little sensitive and have taken things the wrong way, and at the same time I’m sure everyone at some stage has been guilty of opening their mouth before they've thought about how they will say something. It’s just so easily done, particularly if both parties are a little hot under the collar. Please don’t see this as a justification for bullying as that is unacceptable in any form.

3. Public bickering, rather than constructive discussion is not going to resolve this issue. It sounds like both sides of this dispute genuinely believe they have the correct information.

Why not put the angst aside and sit down with the relevant people and come to a resolution. I'm sure CASA and the Min's office don't want to or need to get bombarded by queries on this. Why not work together for the best interests of the sport and not stir up a hornets nest that will see every kiter in the state not only pay for insurance (wherever they get it from) but also up to $200 to buy a lifejacket. That's just another barrier to a new person getting involved in what are difficult enough financial times for many. We want the sport to grow.

It’s in the sports best interests to have a body that can be a point of contact for groups such as councils, casa etc to engage in dialogue to resolve issues before they perhaps turn into a crisis. If they don’t have that point of contact to raise issues or concerns, we could turn up at the beach one day to find a big sign that says no launching , rigging or flying of kites here. It’d make it a little hard to actually get on the water if we can’t rig up on the beach.

4. Insurance, personally, i think people are mad if they don't have it. If you want to go to a different company that isn't saksa - so be it. Just as long as they’re happy with whatever level of coverage they pay for. It’s up to councils if they prefer to recognised one insurance company over the other.

There's been enough mud thrown from all angles, how about progressing and resolving this in a constructive way. Look at the bigger picture, we need to remember this is something most of us do for fun, others make a living from it and we all want to continue to be able to kite in the metro area.

See you safely on the water.
ben mack
ben mack
SA
42 posts
SA, 42 posts
6 Nov 2008 7:52pm
tommy69 said...

Hey I am over this.. Not a SAKSA, Your real name is Ben from A1 Kite boarding and Ben your second name is Mr Pinch.

Adelaide is the best place to kite in aussie land. So many good crew and its chilled out.

So Ben You know that you cant instruct at Henley, CASA over rules all other Gov dept including Marine and Harbors/ Council. The reason CASA have problem with kiters is that. The kites all come up on the radar screens, because we are in the flight line of small aircraft. Boats don’t show on the radar because there are at water line. Where kites are approximately 23-30mtrs above water line.


Please stop all this crap on the forum, Its turning Seabreeze forums into what other states are like, Other states look at SA forums as fun and chilled. Please keep that way.





my name is Ben I run A1 kiteboarding. It is no secret that the group "not a saksa" has contact me. Saksa have not. Just thought I would set the record straight.
Buell
Buell
SA
89 posts
SA, 89 posts
6 Nov 2008 9:12pm

On the subject of PFD's and kiteboarding and in no way entering into the already thrashed discussion

Last Snapper Comp in Whyalla the SA Marine Safety inspectors turned up. As the comp was blown out on the first day with 20kt southerly winds they had no boaties to bother

Being perfect kiteboarding conditions the local crew were having the usual good time on the Whyalla foreshore when the inspectors decided to come and bother us.

They made it very clear that even though we were not venturing more than a couple of hundred meters from shore and the maximum depth of water was less than chest high that we had to wear PFD's by law.

They also indicated that on their next visit they may enforce that law with $160 fines.

On a brighter note, they stated that the Minister could be petitioned to exempt kiteboarders from the PFD requirement if a good case could be given.

How about it SAKSA, something along the lines of

Most kiting is carried out in inshore shallow areas
Wetsuit / spring suit plus harness plus impact vest give reasonable buoyancy
Most PFD’s are just something else to tangle your lines in
PFD’s in surf are simply a liability
Etc etc

I feel that all SA kiteboarders would be more than happy to sign a petition waiving the PFD requirement, it just needs someone to pick up the ball and run with it

Cheers from PFD free me
JOYRIDER
JOYRIDER
705 posts
705 posts
6 Nov 2008 8:32pm
i love the whole secret identity side to this forum.

for all you know i could be a punter from seacliff, that just stirs **** for fun.
but with a secret bull**** identity know one nows.
dazza5172
dazza5172
SA
311 posts
SA, 311 posts
6 Nov 2008 11:15pm
Buell said...


On the subject of PFD's and kiteboarding and in no way entering into the already thrashed discussion

Last Snapper Comp in Whyalla the SA Marine Safety inspectors turned up. As the comp was blown out on the first day with 20kt southerly winds they had no boaties to bother

Being perfect kiteboarding conditions the local crew were having the usual good time on the Whyalla foreshore when the inspectors decided to come and bother us.

They made it very clear that even though we were not venturing more than a couple of hundred meters from shore and the maximum depth of water was less than chest high that we had to wear PFD's by law.

They also indicated that on their next visit they may enforce that law with $160 fines.

On a brighter note, they stated that the Minister could be petitioned to exempt kiteboarders from the PFD requirement if a good case could be given.

How about it SAKSA, something along the lines of

Most kiting is carried out in inshore shallow areas
Wetsuit / spring suit plus harness plus impact vest give reasonable buoyancy
Most PFD’s are just something else to tangle your lines in
PFD’s in surf are simply a liability
Etc etc

I feel that all SA kiteboarders would be more than happy to sign a petition waiving the PFD requirement, it just needs someone to pick up the ball and run with it

Cheers from PFD free me



These are my thoughts exactly, we are a sport in its infancy and a good case for Ministerial exemption is worthwhile to investigate. The pdf in surf can be a danger to the rider as we all know but it would require rationale to those who think that it is white fluffy stuff and not know that being able to duck under white water walls is important in many circumstances.

The interesting issue we face here is that the definition of a vessel under marine and harbours only comes into play when the vessel is under power by means other than man power. This is where a surfboard does not come under the definition and a surfer does not need a pfd.

the irony here is that if the kite hits the water and is disabled or if the wind drops and the kite drops and no longer powers the board and rider, then it is suddenly not a vessel under the marine and harbours act IMO and therefore the rider is not required to have a pfd if the rider is paddling in the are a surfer paddling back into shore on a board.

The other questionable rule for those that think the act can apply to kiting without thinking about it is that generally in navigational rules sea powered vessels give way to sail, that would mean a fishing boat would need to give way to a kite surfer, as the only exception to the rule is that 'the more manoeuvrable vessel will give way to the less', the average small powered vessel is as manoeuvrable as a kite considering they can basically go any direction they choose, which is something we cannot.

The logic here is that really kitesurfing is a very unique system of ocean travel that and any legislative instrument can always be questioned as to what is called its 'intent'. If it can be shown that the intent of the legislation when it was enacted could not possibly have addressed the application to such a unique system and that a new approach to this system that is more appropriate be adopted then sense can prevail. This is very true when the actual sport was not even invented when the act was developed.

Many of the rules in the act do apply to kitesurfing such as keeping away from swimmers and the 4 knot rule close to other water users. It is clear however that other rules such as pfd and that powered vessels are to give way to sail do not really work.

Remember when skate-boarding was a crime? yep that was me too, I was skating on the first boards in the 70s paving the way, getting banned from car parks, now we have skate parks, who did all this, people who got more mature, had their own kids, formed united groups and skate associations and now there are police officers, lawyers and magistrates who used to skate, well:
KITESURFING IS NOT A CRIME, now I'm back at it like all of you, we are guilty until proven innocent, THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

HOWEVER:

One thing is very very clear, the only way to protect the sport and to have access to the beach is to have a strong association which is an association of YOU ALL together as a collective of voters who can TOGETHER influence and protect the beaches through agreeing that it is not sensible to kite where things could get the sport banned. The other way is the best for those who want it banned, having people split and fighting in their own ranks. You think that a bunch of disgruntled argumentative people can influence things? NO, but a bunch of disgruntled argumentative people working together (even if they don't like each other) can.

Keep up the good work SAKSA.

Just remember if you do loose your city beaches and then come down to our beaches there will only be one type of kiters welcome, those who follow the rules.
Make no mistake about that.


Dazza
Nuttzzzz
Nuttzzzz
SA
92 posts
SA, 92 posts
7 Nov 2008 1:20am
As an instructor in Adelaide, I’d like to publicly proclaim my appreciation for the awesome people that make up SAKSA. I appreciate the unpaid work they do to keep our beaches open. I appreciate the events they initiate, all of which grow our sport. I appreciate the passion they have to stand in the face of abstract and often subjective judgement and continue doing what they do.

Most of all I really appreciate the fact that we have a group of people within SAKSA who have the balls, dedication and selflessness to be . . . . SAKSA

Good onya and humble thanx . . . . . . Guy
ckniter
ckniter
SA
16 posts
SA, 16 posts
7 Nov 2008 11:17am
Thanks tommy69 for info about why CASA have a problem with kiting near airports. I agree with most people that we need to play by the rules and keep the beaches safe..
It's way too easy for a council to ban kitesurfing access to their beaches, I think people forget that.
Is there a mechanism for instructors to lose their accreditation if they teach people in a dangerous area?
murf
murf
SA
478 posts
SA, 478 posts
7 Nov 2008 11:38am
WE ALL WISH!!!!
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