How I build wing masts

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kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
23 Aug 2009 8:37pm
The hardest part is deciding on the wing section to use! Endless theories, lots of fun looking at aero books, and RC aeroplane websites. However the major thing to remember is that you are NOT making a mast to hang a sail off the back of, you are building one component of the rig. One of the more successful ideas was to draw your "ideal" cross section, mast front to leach, then decide on the %age of wing to use (big ain't always best), draw a line from the leading edge to where your %age line hits the sail and now you have 1/2 the cross section of your mast.
Now cut very accurately a series of hardboard, alloy or fine grain particle board versions of the complete cross section.
Acquire some "blue foam" the stuff which bulders use for house insulation, or blocks of EPS (small cell).
Nail the patterns on each end of the blocks and line up very carefully (long "wind" sticks help here) The foam is normally 1200mm long so you will have these patterns at that length. Now you know why my masts were parallel for 3600mm then tapered to the tip!
Make a hot wire (or borrow from your nearest model aeroplane dudes).
More tomorrow, the Grand Prix is about to start.
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
24 Aug 2009 6:18am
I won't bother with "how to hotwire" there is plenty on the model 'plane sites I suspect.
So now you have a series of 1200mm long foam wing bits. Woops, forgot. When you hotwire, you take off the trailing edge. Figure this out by having your sailtrack in hand. The back has something for the sail, it can be anything really. I have use alloy sail track, caravan awning track, pvc sail track as used on cargon masts, PVC conduit with a saw cut along it's length, etc. So the back does not come to a point. Moving in from the back you have; the sail track and then a bit of timber roughly 20mm thick. It's easiest to shape this to match your profile before gluing it on, then foam.
Glue each of the bits of foam to the wooded batten and to each other. You don't need glue with any strength,as it will be stronger than the foam anyway. Make sure you are lining this all up carefully and without any twist or curve. You will not be able to take this out later. (Believe me I have been there).
Now take the hotwire again and cut off the whole leading edge back to where the mast is thickest, you will have a long, somewhat delicate "D" section.
Now you again have choices. What you are going to make is a web which goes across the mast. I have made these from; a single long plywood piece with scarf joints and 10mm alloy bars on the edges, the same but with 15mm wooden battens, but the last was fibreglass tri-axial ribbon, very heavy cloth weight.
If doing it again, the glass was easiest lightest and strongest.
I radiuesed off the front edges of the trailing section which was now supported on the wood batten and a couple of full length table. Give it a healthy radius, you have to persuade that glass to curve round for about 20mm along the sides of the wing. Very carefully and with good epoxy glass this on. You need to work at this.
When it has set off carefully sand and smooth.
Now make a base block for the mast step, more wooden blocks for where the boom attachment is, one for the top and another block for where the stays will go They all hang off one fitting on the front.
Now glue all these bits in place, again low strength glue is good enough. (5 minute is fine)
Give it all a bit of a sand, make sure you have there "web" edges well smoothed in.
Glue the front back on. Fasten on the sail track to the timber.
Now you are going to glass the whole thing. You could do a light seal coat and let it harden, some of the surf board guys do, I never have (usually cos I'm in too much of a rush).
I have always left it still standing on the trailing edge, tables etc, but I do know that others have bashed nails in to the top and bottom so you can rotate while glassing. (I have also seen some of these with an inbuilt sideways bend)
Glass layup?? You pays your money and makes your choice! 3 layers of 6oz "S" glass with patches over the hounds fitting and base did not break till a later owner capsized a class 3, so should be fine! "S" glass is a pain to squeegee out, but it does give more strength for weight. The glass has to go all the way back to the sail slit, so you need to think how to achieve that. Do not over resin, it will just float the cloth off the foam.
REMEMBER YOU CAN ONLY USE EPOXY ON POLYSTYRENE FOAM.
Now that it is glassed leave it alone for a day or two.
Fill and fair, paint etc, then put on fittings. I put the mast base 35% back along the wing. If you put the step too far forward it will just rotate too much, too far back and it will oscilate when you tack, and this is NOT fun, it can lift the front of a class 3 over 2 metres in the air if sufficiently violent. I use a standard Ronstan hounds fitting for a bigger mast so that it wraps back as far as the web, and have it welded along the edges of the beak at the front.
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
24 Aug 2009 6:28am
Fitting for the mast base, the favourite was a Ronstan fitting I haven't seen for a while, it's the base for Paper Tiger or A class cat, a small cup on a diamond shaped stainless plate with 2 screw holes. Plenty good enough, gives free rotation and never had one fail.
I hang the stays of one shackle on the hounds fitting. Use at least a 6mm bow shackle.
The Europeans just had a hook on the mast about 5/16 thick and 60mm deep and hung the stays on a ring which just went onto the hook. Again never seen one fall off, "it ain't broke, so don't fix it"
I have never had the need to have a rotation control, just positioned the pulleys on the boom and on the yacht carefully so that as you sheet harder it pulls the rotation off, as you ease it allows the mast to rotate. A boom with easily moveable blocks facilitates this. Drop them forward on the boom for windier days, back a bit for softer days.
The sail is a bit special. Remember it's a while since I last did this, but the sails were always absolutely dead flat, no seam shape, and 25mm of luff round. Seems that the later sails are now going back to conventional cloth too!
Well that's about it, ask questions to clarify if you want!
sn
sn
WA
2775 posts
sn sn
WA, 2775 posts
24 Aug 2009 9:02pm
kiwi307 said...

I won't bother with "how to hotwire" there is plenty on the model 'plane sites I suspect.

REMEMBER YOU CAN ONLY USE EPOXY ON POLYSTYRENE FOAM.


back in the time of BIGM (before I got married)
I used to make "disposable wings" for my disposable r/c aeroplanes out of polystyrene foam, and it was surprising how much punishment they could take- I used aluminium templates at each end of the wing section and a hot wire made by our sparky (at work) to cut them out- I used a bench saw(at work) to cut a trench in the wing sections, and used plain pva wood glue smeared into the trench to fix the spar in place (20mm x 5mm? timber from bunnings)

The entire wing was covered with brown paper glued on with the same pva wood glue. the final paint job was pva paint (leftovers from work)

At the centre section where there was the most stress I wrapped a layer of woven fibreglass matt- and flood brushed it with woodglue and put them aside for a couple of days to dry.

each wing was roughly 1500mm x 250mm, and cost a total of $8.00 to build.

I would imagine you could use the same type of materials to make a landyacht wing.
sn
sn
WA
2775 posts
sn sn
WA, 2775 posts
24 Aug 2009 9:08pm
The hot wire cutter that was made for me was built out of a 24 volt lighting transformer, and a wooden "bow" with thin stainless steel wire under tension in the bow.

There were some electrical calculations involved in adapting the transformer for the job which were a bit out of my league- but the whole gizmo worked a treat.
Clemco
Clemco
430 posts
430 posts
26 Aug 2009 7:29pm
kiwi307 said...

I have never had the need to have a rotation control, just positioned the pulleys on the boom and on the yacht carefully so that as you sheet harder it pulls the rotation off, as you ease it allows the mast to rotate. A boom with easily moveable blocks facilitates this. Drop them forward on the boom for windier days, back a bit for softer days.

Do you mean you controled the mast rotation just like a mid sheeted class 5.
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
26 Aug 2009 8:01pm
A 12 v battery charger work best for the power source, the wire for the bow is a steel E string from a guitar. to get the heat just riht is atrial and error thing with 1 lead from the charger attached to a metre of old stainless wire stayand a crocodile clip moved up and down to get just the right resistance at the cutting wire. yoo want the wire to cut easily without getting melt holes in the foam.
I will try to get a photo of the rig Faze 5 set up for me
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
26 Aug 2009 9:12pm
If you want to go longer than the length of a guitar string, then this is the stuff to get:

http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=WW4040

Experiment with voltages and lengths of wire, you want the wire to make a nice hissing noise as it cuts, and you don't want it to bend much as you pull it through the foam.
A spring is a good idea to keep it tensioned, because the wire expands as it heats up...

Great write-up on the construction btw, it almost sounds possible to do in my garage
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
26 Aug 2009 9:25pm
thats exactly the perfect stuff, especially for a 4m neck on a bass guitar
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
27 Aug 2009 5:23am
Clemco said...

kiwi307 said...

I have never had the need to have a rotation control, just positioned the pulleys on the boom and on the yacht carefully so that as you sheet harder it pulls the rotation off, as you ease it allows the mast to rotate. A boom with easily moveable blocks facilitates this. Drop them forward on the boom for windier days, back a bit for softer days.

Do you mean you controled the mast rotation just like a mid sheeted class 5.


Pretty much, except that the gooseneck is attached to the mast.
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
27 Aug 2009 5:28am
landyacht said...

A 12 v battery charger work best for the power source, the wire for the bow is a steel E string from a guitar. to get the heat just riht is atrial and error thing with 1 lead from the charger attached to a metre of old stainless wire stayand a crocodile clip moved up and down to get just the right resistance at the cutting wire. yoo want the wire to cut easily without getting melt holes in the foam.
I will try to get a photo of the rig Faze 5 set up for me


As I am not a guitarist I have no idea how thick an "E" string is, we use very fine 1mm or less) nichrome wire, the back of the bow has the tensioner, the power source has a rheostat so you get it cutting nicely and adjust the tension as the wire heats to keep it straight, and relax the tension when you turn the power off. It would need to be a pretty big guitar to give a wire bow over 1400mm long!

Nebbian, if you saw the garage I built them in you would KNOW you can do one!
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
4 Sep 2009 10:25am
With solid wings is there any "ideal" thickness ratio for a wing?
and does a wing need control flaps at the rear of the wing or would it operate OK as just a wing profile?
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
4 Sep 2009 11:40am
Gizmo said...

With solid wings is there any "ideal" thickness ratio for a wing?
and does a wing need control flaps at the rear of the wing or would it operate OK as just a wing profile?


If you look at Vindicator which Faze5 built and Paul is now the custodian, it has a symmetrical wing (or did when I sailed it). It worked fine, was a bit slow on initial acceleration, but seemed to accelerate almost exponentially, ie seemd to accelrate more,the faster it went. As I was sailing on the mud patch at Gawler (?) it meant that it was becoming interesting, far from frightening though.
Most of the solids in the US are using flaps to give assymetry, and without having the yachts together my backside feeling (as opposed to gut) was that the US ones were quicker accelerating, apart from the very extreme aspect ratio ones. (I did only sail 2 of them myself and had a ride in another).
In regard "ideal" thickness! the art/science of this is just a guess in my belief. Landyachts operate over an aerodynamically impossible range from almost zero to ??? (200km for the record). In my wings I gave thought to mechanical strength, there are very large compression loads with a mast/sail combo (none at all with a soldi wing), so I recon that less than 80mm thick would be very easy to blow to bits, and my masrt was around 280mm front to back. Leading edge radius needs some thought to avoid stalling!
Clemco
Clemco
430 posts
430 posts
4 Sep 2009 5:46pm
I hate to bring up the weight problen again but 280 x 80 looks a bit fat to me. Would not a 6:1 ratio wing be more efficient?
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
5 Sep 2009 5:42pm
Clemco said...

I hate to bring up the weight problen again but 280 x 80 looks a bit fat to me. Would not a 6:1 ratio wing be more efficient?


Hi Clem, what did the wing I had on the Sanderling weigh? Around 10kg actually. 5.1 metres long 270 wide and it was 70mm thick. BTW how many have you made? Not knocking you but do a few before you throw too much at it.
What sail plan have you drawn this out for, because the total chord is the influencing factor on thickness.
Clemco
Clemco
430 posts
430 posts
7 Sep 2009 8:49am
I am sorry 307, I was being a smart ass.
Serious question though,
Would a thinner wing be better than a thick one. I hear the windsurfer masts are getting thinner these days. Also I notice the Palmer class 3's have quite thin wing masts.
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
7 Sep 2009 9:34am
Clemco said...

I am sorry 307, I was being a smart ass.
Serious question though,
Would a thinner wing be better than a thick one. I hear the windsurfer masts are getting thinner these days. Also I notice the Palmer class 3's have quite thin wing masts.


Hey that's cool Clem.
I think with Colin's masts there MAY be some influence over where it was to be used. Just gave him a quick phone call, thinnest were 80mm finished up to 125, and the euro wings (for short tacking beaches) may be thicker still.
He confirmed what I said earlier, "they seem to work so the must be OK, and there is bugger all science to it!"
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
8 Sep 2009 11:23am
kiwi307 said...

Gizmo said...

With solid wings is there any "ideal" thickness ratio for a wing?
and does a wing need control flaps at the rear of the wing or would it operate OK as just a wing profile?


If you look at Vindicator which Faze5 built and Paul is now the custodian, it has a symmetrical wing (or did when I sailed it). It worked fine, was a bit slow on initial acceleration, but seemed to accelerate almost exponentially, ie seemd to accelrate more,the faster it went. As I was sailing on the mud patch at Gawler (?) it meant that it was becoming interesting, far from frightening though.

In its original form vindis symetrical wing was a wooden frame covered in a "new material called monofilm.. on Port gawler beach it could sail and race quite well against a sanderling rig and had similar aceleration. Im guessing that was because there was some distortion of the rig that made it assymetric enough to work.
It didnt go that much faster than sanderling rig either.
when the wing was filled and faired, it became another creature altogether.
in say 1knts 0-64 kph is slow work carefully winding up, then great accel from 64-85 . this is when the front tyre expands so the first few runs of the season /day will be a bit bumpy .85-104 is a steady smooth acceleration. your now at the peak of what any other yachts on the lake is going to do in a blow. a LLM will have washed out at 85, you'll have scared the #### out of any local 5's and be passing any visiting kiwi YOTT's.
youve just got up to slow cruising speedthe wing seems to sit at that speed waiting for a gust. in a stronger wind it likes to sit at 123-125 waiting for a gust.
On one occasion the yacht went from 0 to 105 in the time it took me to take off a glove, adjust the helmet strap and look up at the speedo!

Now when the yacht gets away in reverse its a different type of acceleration again
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
8 Sep 2009 12:19pm
Now for something "slightly different".
When Cogito the C class catamaran solid wing was first built it was also covered in monofilm. Subsequently this was stripped off and covered in cling film. It was heavier weight than what you wrap your sandwiches in, but according to those who sailed it, it was a huge improvement,in all ways, speed, acceleration and handleability and that was the only change!
According to them it was the outcome of flex in the rig, some from the rig not being locked into a designers shape and it now twisted as it wanted to!
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
9 Sep 2009 8:39pm
Oooooooh , Ive got a big industrial roll of that stuff
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
10 Sep 2009 10:59am
landyacht said...

Oooooooh , Ive got a big industrial roll of that stuff


Time you went and played then! You have tons of time, just build a whole new wing!
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
11 Sep 2009 4:46pm
my problem is just getting the timing of my time right.
my time is sadly regulated by customers and other peoples shift rosters.
AND wind( of whichthere is 30+knts outside )
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
12 Sep 2009 3:57pm
Ah work, the curse of the drinking and leisure loving man!
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
13 Sep 2009 8:10pm
got rigged at 4.30 saturday, went out for 1 quick sail...................75kms later came back in at a nice cruising 115kph. managed to do a 2 way run of the length of the lake. thats the second time in 29 years on Lefroy . wind was nice, TP1 was sailng wih my daughters little 3m sail off 'Hummingbird'
had a great camp, did the drink/hangover thing, and got up to a nowind sunday!
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