Technical tips, welding and more

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Sandflyer
Sandflyer
SA
48 posts
SA, 48 posts
1 Apr 2008 10:51am
Thanks for taking on board the advice, am happy someone is reading

The general forum has a "Technical tips" topic and thread. We might think about adding our collective nouse to the "Construction" forum, use "Technical tips" headline topics, wheels, bearings, frame material, welding etc?
Sandflyer
Sandflyer
SA
48 posts
SA, 48 posts
1 Apr 2008 11:08am
Lachy, further to welding post. If you are welding material which needs to cool slowly you can use a lime bath. On the farm you may have 44 gallon drums (205lt), cut one lengthwise to form a trough and fill with normal dry powdered lime (Hydrated, garden, whatever). You may have this on the farm as soil improver. Bury welded object, acts like an oven or blanket. when cooled, remove object, dust off with wire brush, hey presto.
Sandflyer
Sandflyer
SA
48 posts
SA, 48 posts
1 Apr 2008 11:09am
great info from Sandfly:"quote Hills"

Howdy Paul and all,
You talked of frame warping through welded areas. Weld areas can be relaxed by using your oxy torch to stress relieve the area. Welding, particularly MMA (stick) causes the steel to shrink, creating great stress in the weld zone. There is also the change in chemical structure (austenite, martensite, boundary layers/transition zones, yar yar yar!).
Using the torch to heat the weld and surrounding area fully to a nice bright red, before oxidizing (burning) will give you home grown weld area stress relief. Let air cool do not quench, do not cool too fast in air either. It is important to be sure the weld is heated fully through. This will help keep the frames true, another benefit is the potential for less or nil cracking in the welded joint when used over many years and rough ground.
As an aside, welding has damaged some of the zinc protection on the Galtube, a little more flame damage wont hurt.
Commercial crayons are available, which change colour when applied to a heated surface, to let you know exact temperature. As you know when tempering, stress relieving are performed commercially it is done to precise formats. The oxy torch at home works well for us.
Your jigged frames may benefit from relieving before removal (whilst still clamped). Weld stresses are still applied, and even though the frame is held rigid during manufacture, on releasing the frame may still take on some twist or warp. Though yes, it will be less than if made free hand.
When an assembly is twisted or warped the judicial application of heat, and water to heated areas can dramaticlly change the shape or straighten a bent object or assembly. Applying water to a heated area shrinks the steel. You may be amazed at the size of steel members which can be transfomed by this method.
If you get the opportunity to watch or talk to a REAL panel beater, when he is working his craft on a vehicle made from real steel, not the modern vehicle HSLA steels you will get my drift.
Cheers
lachlan3556
lachlan3556
VIC
1066 posts
VIC, 1066 posts
1 Apr 2008 2:47pm
Thanks for the extra bit of info Sandflyer. Will have to try that when I next get building.
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
1 Apr 2008 4:35pm
in my particular problem they welder needed to stop faffing around and just hold it in the jig which was NEXT to the chassis he was welding the bent axle wasnt set up right when he started.None of the steel I use in my yachts needs any fancy quenching or tempering.
ie K.I.S.S.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
2 Apr 2008 1:03am
If anyboby is looking at buying an arc welder for the home workshop, step into your local "BOC Gas and Gear" shop.

I bought the "Smooth Arc 130" which is an inverter welder (uses electronics instead of heavy copper) and runs off a normal household 10 amp power outlet. It has a great duty cycle (the amount of time you can use it at full amps before it needs a rest to cool down) and will run a 3mm rod at anywhere between 85 to 130 amps.

They only weigh around 7kg so you can use the strap to sling it over your shoulder and go up a ladder with it. I paid $325 for mine a year ago and I believe they have maintained the price.

Don't know about the latest one but mine is NOT fitted with a VRD (voltage reduction device) and therefore strikes an arc very easily.

Before I bought mine I asked to use it in their demo bay. No problem. So I cranked it up and burned 3mm rods on a piece of 10mm steel until the guy came back and asked if I would stop as I was filling the shop up with fumes.

There is the 170amp model also but it needs a 15amp outlet.

Repco sells a similar machine for $599, mace by SIP in Italy. I bought one of them first but took it back for a refund to go buy the BOC unit. Far superior!!

P.S. I am not employed by BOC, I just love my little stinger.
hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
2 Apr 2008 2:54pm
Where does everyone strike up an arc. It looks like Paul has been doing it on the work. I always attach a welders clamp the to the job and strike up on that to save on cleaning up. Am I just being anal or do I make too much mess when I strike up??

Please note I am a complete newbie to welding so pardon my ignorance
lachlan3556
lachlan3556
VIC
1066 posts
VIC, 1066 posts
2 Apr 2008 5:03pm
Most of the time on the workpiece but sometimes on a scrap. I've definately been known to butcher the tips of rods.
I've found technique has a lot to do with rods sticking excessively, have to use nice light touches and keep the rod moving across the piece to stop from sticking. No one taught me that, it just seems towork well for me
hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
2 Apr 2008 4:57pm
Yeah I find that if I strike up on the clamp and get the rod nice and hot it never sticks to the job, but it makes a big mess of the clamp.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
2 Apr 2008 6:55pm
If you ever have to do a lot of welding, hire a MIG welder from your local hire shop you will LOVE it and worth the $ for the weekend.
hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
2 Apr 2008 7:09pm
Yeah so I've been told. I'm thinking that might have to be my next hardware purchase, although I've been told to avoid gasless mig. Are mig welds as strong as arc welds?
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
2 Apr 2008 7:37pm
I actually own both types.
The gas mig ONLY works well in sheltered areas with little or no wind to blow the gas away.
The gasless works equally as well if not a little better on galv. steel but mind u the welds need to be easily cleaned up with a wire brush after welding. and works well outside.
Yes welds are equally as strong as arc
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
2 Apr 2008 11:13pm
To qualify my folowing, I must state that I am a qualified Fitter and Machinist (lefty, lefty, loosey, loosey, righty, righty, tighty, tighty ), coastal marine engineer (I'll keep your poxy engine going, but when we get to port, don't ask me to fix it. [}:)]) and worked on the Maui Gas Pipeline in NZ for two years as a stove pipe welder (that is a boilermaker with his brains knocked out). He makes a lot more money than a boilery though.

MIG (Metal Inert Gas) welders, gas or gasless are a great innovation in the field of arc welding as are many of the MMA (Manual Metal Arc) welding electrodes (flux coated welding rods) available today.

Many of these electrodes are known as "Farmers Rods". That is, you do not need to be a trained welder to use them successfully. Just scratch it like a match to get an arc going and one can run them full contact and end up with a reasonable weld.

For most of us home workshop guys, all we are looking for is a reasonable weld.

From that point I believe it comes to a question of economics. Are you going to spend $2,500 on the u-beaut MIG welder (needing a 15 amp outlet on your household circuit, another $1,000) to build your fantastic land yacht, for which your budget is $1,500???

Yes there are MIG welders available from $400-$500, gas and gasless. How good is the weld they produce and can they be used to weld aluminium?

The "Smooth Arc 130" I mentioned in my earlier post, with the addition of an Argon arc torch and gas regulator ($150-$250) will weld aluminium I believe. I stand to be corrected on this as I have never welded aluminium.

My main point here is economical not technical. The $325 cost of one of those little machines can easily be absorbed into the cost of building a land yacht and a trailer to carry it around.
hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
2 Apr 2008 11:54pm
I'm a little embarrased to say my welding is done with a $99.00 Ozito
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
2 Apr 2008 9:59pm
My plan is to keep welding with my box of copper till it dies, then go the inverter. My experience with MIGS in this part of the world is that the salty dust builds up and corrodes the wire and you rarely get a good weld ie ifrequent home use.
I replace my leads every 2 years or so and stopped using chinese rods as soon as I could afford CIG satincrafts. clean your steel.have a good clamp.
If you spend another $99 on leads ,handpiece and clamp youll be amazed how much better the unit will be.
IMHO
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
3 Apr 2008 1:00am
If the Ozito works for you Phil, great. Give it a good thrashing because I think it has a 3 year replacement warranty.

Can't agree more with you Paul on the clamp and lead comment. A good set of them can cost more than the welder sometimes.

The "Smooth Arc 130" comes with fairly good earth and stinger clamps and brass twist in sockets on the other end of the leads accommodate easy reversing of polarity.
Sandflyer
Sandflyer
SA
48 posts
SA, 48 posts
4 Apr 2008 12:00am
Hey Cisco,
Argon arc, do you mean TIG torch/welding? Many of the more modern Arc welders with mods can/are TIG welders too. But they are still DC, to weld aluminium with TIG it must be AC TIG. Something to do with the chemistry, molecular structure of Al., apparently is not happy when trying to weld with DC TIG.

Some older Arc welders can have magic boxes attached turning them into TIG, but many cannot, because when the arc is struck it creates a dead short, which will blow a fuse, this happens because the machine is not designed or set up to perform this task, and still are DC only.

Remember too that arc welding is earth negative and TIG is reversed, earth positive.
There are many models of DC TIG available but fewer ACDC TIG. If purchasing a decent branded TIG the additional cost for ACDC can be around $1k to $2K

I am trying to convince myself I need an ACDC TIG welder, a Lincoln 205 amp (American, made in Italy) inc GST around $4.8k, Transarc/BOC around $4k (local). These are industrial models (not light not heavy), run on 240 and 10 amp, better on 15. Lower amp models are available, remember Al is a tremendous heat transfer medium (heat sink), to keep sufficient heat in the weld area on thicker Al. power is needed.
The guys building tinnies run 3 to 400 amp models, yes they are welding all day, and those machines have very high duty cycles.

Many yellow versions around $1/2k, but you gets what you pay for. Service packup? warranty service? consumables? reliability? and most importantly the ability to actually perform to their screed? And most do not carry the OZ approval CE mark and other electrical safety approval, particularly those on eBay.

Something else of interest is the PULSE feature, if you can afford, this is fantastic on MIG and TIG. With MIG you basically get droplet transfer rather than the wire feed into the molten weld pool. When set and used correctly, not hard to do, essentially nil clean up and Mig spatter all over you and head, burning your hair folicles, sending you bald.

Wont bore you too much with one post, will enhance this later, just got home from work 2130hrs with pizza (hmm?) shower now.
Catch soon, cheers
Kody
Kody
QLD
190 posts
QLD, 190 posts
4 Apr 2008 11:17pm
Welding with any form of arc does have its specific problems. All these problems can be overcome given time and skill. Skill is probably the hardest thing to aquire. Is there an alternative way to join the metal parts? Yes there certainly is and it's easy to do and has some big advantages. I wrote somewhat of this within a previous post but I thought I should explain more of the process in detail here.

The alternative process is called by the common name - "Brazing". However, this is not brazing persei (sp?). The correct term is Bronze Welding. It is performed with an oxy acetylene torch, flux and a very special filler rod. The rod is known as "Nickel Bronze". Nickel bronze is made from copper, nickel and some tin and has a couple of other elements mixed in to improve its "wetting" ability. This stuff is immensley strong and tough. If a "weld" is broken, it is the parent metal that often fails first and the bronze remains undamaged. This is NOT welding but the process is usually refered to as "Brazing". Such a term is very misleading. Brazing refers strictly to the use of a BRASS filler rod. The most common brazing rod is known as "Combond". Never use this stuff on your car or where you want super high strength. Combond is made from copper and ZINC plus a few other elements, again to aid "wetting" and capillary action.
Strictly speaking, Bronze Welding is not true welding. Welding actually melts the filler rod and the parent metal, ie, the metal/s being joined. Because the Bronze is bonded with the steel, the term Brazing is used but it's a horrid term to use.

There is another metal that consists of nickel and copper. The nickel is 60% (or more) and the copper is 40%. It is called Monel and is tremendously strong and tough, as good as some of the hi-tensile steels. It also comes at a price.
The big advantage of using Nickel Bronze is that the heat input is cut by at least a third. Even though a large area may be heated, the dissipated (lower) heat helps to reduce distortion as a whole. Large fillets can be built up with ease and mistakes can be melted away, but dont overdo the melting. It is still important that close fitting joints be made as this greatly reduces the heat input and will give a superior joint that looks very professional. The molten bronze bonds with the steel and gives excellent results. However, too much heat and intergranular penetration of the steel can occur. This is not good but can be easily recognized by the bronze burning/vapourizing and smoking. With everything working correctly, the molten bronze looks like molten gold. It is essential that correct goggles be worn when using this technique. The flux has a high sodium content (?) and gives off an eye killing ray of light, not to mention the oxy flame itself.

An oxy set is easy to use BUT you do need to know ALL the safety principles and how to use it correctly. Once you have used an oxy torch, you will wonder how you survived without one. If anyone wants to try this out, definitely get someone who is qualified, to show/teach you how it's done. From joining steel with nickel bronze, its only a small step to welding with the oxy set. To attach all the ancillary bits and pieces to the frame, nickel bronze welding is definitely the first choice to do it.
So what are the bad things about nickel bronze? Only ferrus metals can be joined, it is no good for aluminium.
The bad things about oxy acetylene use is,-
1, Oxy acetylene will give you the worst burn you ever saw, ever had.
2, Oxy acetylene will give you the worst burn you ever saw, ever had.
3, Oxy acetylene will give you the worst burn you ever saw, ever had.

I think there is a message there somewhere!

Kody
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