Torsional stiffness

9 years ago
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gofaster
gofaster
105 posts
105 posts
5 Mar 2017 5:01pm
Just starting building my LLM - thanks for those plans being posted up Gizmo.
Looking at the spine tube there is a choice shown. The 60mm tube will be much stiffer than the 47mm. But does that make a better yacht? The reason I ask is that I found with my radio controlled landyachts one of the best had a pvc main tube that twisted during very strong winds but somehow that made it more controllable.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
5 Mar 2017 9:05pm
The LLMini is designed around 'easy available' materials.... 60x2 tube is much easier to get than 47x3 drill tube.
60x2 is whats used on street signs and fence posts, the 47x3 is seamless high tensile tube maybe easy to get in a mining town but not available everywhere.
Also the chassis and mast flex is critical in the sailability of a yacht, to soft it handles like mush and won't perform well, to stiff and you pop wheels easily and break welds.
There is a balance between both ends of the spectrum.
sn
sn
WA
2775 posts
sn sn
WA, 2775 posts
5 Mar 2017 10:17pm
Use the 60 x 2 tube, like Gizmo said - it is literally "available on every street corner"

Not shown in the plans as these improvements were developed at a later date :

: mast step can be vertical [instead of the 10 degree rearwards lean] - this has proven to work very well with unmodified windsurfer sails.

: weld a plate over the rear of the chassis spine tube - then the tube is less liable to tear at the axle tube welds due to twisting.

: run a steel strap [flat bar 25mm ish x 5mm ish] down one side of the mast-step, underneath the chassis spine, and back up the other side of the mast-step.
Stitch weld the strap to the mast-step and chassis spine, not a continuous weld.
This will prevent the mast step welds from fatiguing and tearing apart due to stress.
gofaster
gofaster
105 posts
105 posts
6 Mar 2017 5:53am
Well as it happens I have the exact tube from the exact same source, currently being used as the draw bar on my boat trailer... I only have a stick welder and it might be a bit challenging to weld the thin tube but I'll give it a go.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
6 Mar 2017 10:03am
Lightly grind off the Galv coating in the area the weld will happen.... Also when welding don't breath in the fumes, Galv fumes can make you very sick.
lachlan3556
lachlan3556
VIC
1066 posts
VIC, 1066 posts
8 Mar 2017 1:07pm
From what I've seen, chassis twist becomes less important if you have a flexible mast. Hence, unless you have a very stiff mast, chassis twist won't be too much of an issue. Of course this isn't to say it doesn't matter, and if you want a really forgiving yacht then max flexibility is your target. I can say that the Gal tube chassis works very well!
gofaster
gofaster
105 posts
105 posts
16 Mar 2017 6:08am
This is interesting. My calculations show the dia60 tube to be nearly twice as stiff in torsion as the dia47. I'm tending toward making the frame on the side of lower stiffness to make for forgiving handling. It is very noticeable on the radio controlled yachts how much easier they are to sail in very strong wind if there is frame flex.
It would be interesting to incorporate an adjustable torsion element in the spine, like a torsion bar, and experiment.
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
16 Mar 2017 3:31pm
There is another way of doing this Flexible rear axles
I use ski axles but they could be made up with multiple layers of timber By removing and adding layers they can be varied to suit
I find the ski axles doubled up just right for me If using timber the axles need to be wider than they are deep to prevent flex forward and back
I have seen attempts to make the spine with variable flexibility but it never came to anything
GeoffSobering
GeoffSobering
59 posts
59 posts
17 Mar 2017 1:23am
Hiko said..
There is another way of doing this Flexible rear axles
I use ski axles but they could be made up with multiple layers of timber...



Iceboats use flexible wood planks as a primary rig-tuning element.

If you decide to go that route, don't forget that you need to put more curve in when you're gluing it up to allow for "springback".
There is a formula to estimate it on p. 94 of the book "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction":
www.westsystem.com/the-gougeon-brothers-on-boat-construction/

Cheers,

Geoff S.
Chook2
Chook2
WA
1249 posts
WA, 1249 posts
17 Mar 2017 7:11am
All great advice on the mods there guys.

Just a heads up in Aussie, that the 60.3mm x 2.3mm "Gal tube plus" pipe, is no longer made. This was a product name for the coating used on the pipe.
So now ask for "DuraGal Plus" that has replaced it. It's only the makeup of the galvanized finish compound that has slightly changed. It is still the same "cold formed" seamed pipe, that's hot dipped galvanized. "Street sign material"
(I notice that there now seems a trend to rectangular "colour-bond patio tube", for our local street signs.)

So
Standard Duragal C350LO is 350NM. Yield Stress.
DuraGal Plus 450PLUS is 450NM. Yield Stress.

I have built chassis from both the C350 and C450NM with the same wall thickness/yacht dimensions and I cant tell the difference to be honest. (No mining here locally to try the smaller diameter drill tube, all my yachts are gal pipe.)
Both strength pipes flex beautifully when loaded up.
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
17 Mar 2017 11:53am
The variable torsion spine that I saw some years ago for those that are interested was made up of two tubes one that was a slip fit inside the other.
Welded into the smaller tube was a length of flat spring steel projecting into the larger tube. Along the outside of the larger tube was two rows of nuts welded 180 degrees opposite each other that took setscrews that clamped onto the torsion spring.
By shifting the setscrews to clamp the torsion spring at various lengths the springiness of the spine could be altered.
I dont believe the experiment was a roaring success for some reason or other and was not pursued any further
I think also the system was noisy but I guess that could be overcome with bushes etc.
gofaster
gofaster
105 posts
105 posts
17 Mar 2017 4:06pm
Hiko -what you describe was what I was thinking. The advantage over the flexi axle ( eg skis or timber) might be the camber on the rear wheels won't change as much in use, but I don't know if this really is an issue.

Since it sounds like it works quite well I think I'm going for a flexi axle - probably skis as I can get them for little$. I tried an axle like this made from laminated bamboo blind slats in T and Y frame shapes on the RC yachts and it was effective , but with some unusual bending/twisting under load, especially with the Y. Much more forgiving than a rigid rear axle.

I would like to know relatively how stiff in bending and torsion the ski type axle is compared to the spine - like has anyone loaded an axle up over some supports to measure the deflection?

Should the layers of the spring material ( ski, wood) be bonded to each other?
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
17 Mar 2017 6:03pm
My ski axles are mounted face to face and bolted together at the stub axles and also where they mount to the chassis Care needs to be taken that no binding screw holes are near the point where they exit the chassis
as I have had one fail for this reason at that stress point My stub axles have a few degrees of camber but I don't believe it is necessary on a mini with their wheelbarrow wheels Better zero camber I think
The flex gives them some anyway
How stiff compared to the spine ? I have no idea My spines are 50x2mm exhaust tube
lachlan3556
lachlan3556
VIC
1066 posts
VIC, 1066 posts
28 Mar 2017 2:08pm
gofaster said..
This is interesting. My calculations show the dia60 tube to be nearly twice as stiff in torsion as the dia47. I'm tending toward making the frame on the side of lower stiffness to make for forgiving handling. It is very noticeable on the radio controlled yachts how much easier they are to sail in very strong wind if there is frame flex.
It would be interesting to incorporate an adjustable torsion element in the spine, like a torsion bar, and experiment.


Having one 60mm galtube, and 47mm drill rod chassis, I would hazard a guess and say this sounds ballpark right
lachlan3556
lachlan3556
VIC
1066 posts
VIC, 1066 posts
28 Mar 2017 2:12pm
Don't forget also that the rear axles are also a source of suspension over bumps and ruts, a 'springier' chassis spine won't contribute to soaking up bumps. Something else to consider (where does this conundrum end.....).
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