Sail Twist

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Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
4 Sep 2008 11:01am
I know we may have covered this topic before but i saw this pic and it had me thinking !!!!

"So, the witty ice boaters use negative mast bend to eliminate twist from their sail. The mast follows the curve of the sail leech, providing essentially zero twist. Seagulls, as birds in general, do the same - as the feathers at the trailing edge of the wing twist out under pressure, the seagull bends down its wing to eliminate the harmful twist."

Full article.... http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/98_2_SideBend/SideBend.htm



lachlan3556
lachlan3556
VIC
1066 posts
VIC, 1066 posts
4 Sep 2008 7:14pm
Oh, this looks good. Finally something good said about stayed landyacht designs.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
4 Sep 2008 6:57pm
I still think the "Sandpiper" with the stayed mast was a great little yacht.
By holding up the mast with stays the construction of the mast and yacht can be much lighter.( The mast was only 1.6mm thick on the sandpiper)
I think a class 6 with thin kevlar rope as the stays should work well......
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
4 Sep 2008 8:57pm
I was reliably informed by an iceyachter that this type of mast bending was the way that a DN iceyacht rides out the gustsand is unique to the DN. With a stiff mast they lift and tip too easily. the other iceyacht types dont do it this way as they have more wing like masts and rely on 'regular' twist to do the same thing. the DN type bend has really only been effective since the introduction of carbon masts. However , as Ive not seen a DN Itrust in his wealth of knowledge.
In the mid 80's when Bill and Bruce put stayed masts onto their class 6 yachts,combined with a springy rear axle, it was game over for every other class 6 that had come before.
They were simply little rockets . I believe they would have been competative against the current crop of Australian class 5 yachts.Adding a bit of 150mm alloy wing would make for extreme racing even a cl5 chassis cant contain that combination. BUT the fleible rear axle is essential.
the next alternative is the tortional chassis. most chassis's ive seen here in Aus are too stiff at some point in the chassis, possibly because we use the 4.00x8 wheels with them . The Europeans learnt early on that tall,LIGHTWEIGHT rims and light tyres,on a OTT chassis, could replicate the effect of the wooden rear axles seen on the class3 yachts. combine this with the stiff tall masts that lay over just the right amount and you are replicating the powersystem of a winged mast ,springy axle combination that works so well.
heres a wing mast,stayed combination we put on a pacific magic,for fun. it worked better when mounted on the bigger yacht 'Pigs Might Fly'

nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
4 Sep 2008 11:50pm
As far as I can tell, the faster you go, the less twist you want.

So an ice yacht (VERY fast) has almost no twist, a sea yacht (very slow) has lots of twist.

As to why? Ermmm... something to do with wind shear and apparent wind maybe? NFI.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
5 Sep 2008 2:17am
nebbian said...

As far as I can tell, the faster you go, the less twist you want.

So an ice yacht (VERY fast) has almost no twist, a sea yacht (very slow) has lots of twist.

As to why? Ermmm... something to do with wind shear and apparent wind maybe? NFI.



Pardon my ignorance but assuming anybody using a sail wishes to achieve max efficiency and speed, wouldn't twist be disadvantageous to ANY yacht except as a way of sailing through gusts for a windsurfer by spilling wind instead of being knocked down??

lachlan3556
lachlan3556
VIC
1066 posts
VIC, 1066 posts
5 Sep 2008 11:16am
Im probably wrong, but i thought sail twist was to allow a sail to have a changing angle of attack as you go higher up. This was because wind velocity increases with height above the ground (relative to a yachts height, not km's high) and therefore the apparent wind direction varies up the sail. Because sailing on land is so much faster the difference in apparent wind is much reduced and sail twist is bad on a landyacht. Someone tell me Im wrong and give the correct answer



Is the increase in performance via a flexible rear axle solely because the rig can lean over during a gust and transfer energy on the way back to centre or another factor? Would you venture a guess about whether 'springy' rear stays achieve a similar result if the rear axle were solid?

landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
5 Sep 2008 6:06pm
My take on the springy rear axle thing is that it takes the gusts and the rear of the yacht goes down,raking the mast,effectivly flattening the chord? of the sail,and makes you go faster, as the gust drops the axle comes up and you get a shorter deeper chord,more vert. mast , power on. If you hit a bump or hollow the axle absorbs the vibration from going into the sail.
i think of the axle as a way of storing energy for when the wind gust drops.
I am thinking that a springy stay would react to a gust allowing the mast to swing forward whilst laying off I suspect this would be a bad thing.
When i select a piece of wood for an axle I set up 2x 75mm block, 2m apart(the plank would be for a 2m axle.) when i stand in te middle it should almost touch the ground and bounce up and down at my command . if it wants to oscilate against my wieght it is too springy,if it creaks or groans ,too weak, if it cracks,its no good. They get a bit cheesed off at the "warehouse' when i go to buy a board, but bad luck.[}:)]
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