Downsizing

9 years ago
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knight
knight
NSW
60 posts
NSW, 60 posts
10 May 2017 7:01am
Hello all,

Due to a change in family circumstances (first child) it has become apparent to me that it is time to downsize slightly and move from a fixed keel yacht to a trailer sailor.

I'm aware of the points that cone up here fairly regularly, namely less boat for the same price, maintenance and storage costs are much the same, set up and pack down time, etc however after having a long discussion with my wife about it we feel a trailer sailor will suit our growing family better.

To that end I'd love to hear any suggestions on what class of yacht we should be looking at. We are initially looking in the order of 18-22ft (not concerned about weight, we have a car suitable for towing almost anything), budget somewhere around the 10k mark.

I'm definitely more interested in something that is self righting rather than an very large dinghy. I've received a recommendation to look at an investigator 563, but still keen to hear other classes I should consider.

(On another note, if anyone is in the market for a dependable 25ft yacht, get in touch with me as Galini, my Top Hat Mk3 is up for sale)
Craig66
Craig66
NSW
2466 posts
NSW, 2466 posts
10 May 2017 7:20am
Keep the one you have, just sell the big tow truck, wife, kid/s

will save you years of grief

sirgallivant
sirgallivant
NSW
1531 posts
NSW, 1531 posts
10 May 2017 7:32am
Don't do it! Try to work around it if you will or you might regret it for a looong time. Children can be accommodated, you don't have to and shouldn't ruin your life for their sake. I am a terrible cynic, at the end they only going to put you into a home, take you money and house.
My parents did not sell their motorbike nor their yacht. I went into a backpack on dad's back on the bike and into a big bucket on board for a bath. It was fun.
Neither of us regretted it.
(never put them into a home, either)

Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7756 posts
NSW, 7756 posts
10 May 2017 8:07am
I would suggest talking a bit more with your wife. Discuss raising the mast, standing in the water sometimes waist deep holding the boat while you get your truck, child crying etc. The trailer sailer would soon end up with all those other trailer sailers with grass growing up through the trailer. Buy a bigger fixed keeler.
boty
boty
QLD
685 posts
QLD, 685 posts
10 May 2017 8:18am
hate trailer sailers all that rigging up and derigging towing to and from 2 hours wasted when i could have been sailing . having said that im thinking of building a light weight 20 foot gaff rigged trailerble for sailing inland waterways but if you have to have one look at compass careel or a bit more money and ross 650
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
10 May 2017 9:02am
One factor not mentioned by Knight in the intro is that he has a job which moves him around the country. Hence the advantage of a trailer/sailer is that it can easily follow him and the family wherever he is posted.

Sorry, I am not a fan of the Compass Careel Mks 1 and 2 if you have no tow weight restriction, as they are not properly self-righting.

A bigger version of the Investigator 563 concept is the Sunmaid 20. The Boomerang 20 is another stable T/S but the drop keel is an issue in the cabin. Ultimate 18 is similar.
More info on the Investigator at investigator563.com/Forum/
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3585 posts
NSW, 3585 posts
10 May 2017 9:16am
How much of an issue is self righting in small TYs? The only times I've been in a CC 18 I've been struck by how practical they were as a family boat. I did see one capsize, but that was about 40 years ago and given their popularity it doesn't appear to be a high risk. Any small boat getting knocked down to that sort of angle is a health risk to a "family crew" anyway.

There's upsides and downsides to all small boats. I knew the Roses of Careel fame, and they said that they felt the CC18 was very good for kids because the lack of a keel meant they could take it right into shallow water where the kids were at less risk of falling overboard when young. Obviously they were biased to their boat, but it was an interesting remark that showed the factors that had to be balanced.

Knight, what sort of a sailor are you? Do you like overnighting? Do you like to tweak, or like to set and forget? What sort of launching ramp do you have? Do you want to take the boat right into a beach, or anchor out?
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
10 May 2017 9:43am
Chris 249 said..
How much of an issue is self righting in small TYs? The only times I've been in a CC 18 I've been struck by how practical they were as a family boat. I did see one capsize, but that was about 40 years ago and given their popularity it doesn't appear to be a high risk. Any small boat getting knocked down to that sort of angle is a health risk to a "family crew" anyway.

There's upsides and downsides to all small boats. I knew the Roses of Careel fame, and they said that they felt the CC18 was very good for kids because the lack of a keel meant they could take it right into shallow water where the kids were at less risk of falling overboard when young. Obviously they were biased to their boat, but it was an interesting remark that showed the factors that had to be balanced.

Knight, what sort of a sailor are you? Do you like overnighting? Do you like to tweak, or like to set and forget? What sort of launching ramp do you have? Do you want to take the boat right into a beach, or anchor out?


Getting to the beach is not a problem with the Investigator 563




Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3585 posts
NSW, 3585 posts
10 May 2017 10:36am
It depends on the beach, the slope and whether you want to be stern to shore or not. The Investigator's a nice little boat but every boat has pluses and minuses, and some people for some uses want a boat that doesn't have a stub keel like the 563 has.
dreamliner
dreamliner
NSW
110 posts
NSW, 110 posts
10 May 2017 11:22am
Not a real TS fan but Ive always liked the look of the Masrm 720
FelixdeCat
FelixdeCat
NSW
234 posts
NSW, 234 posts
10 May 2017 1:24pm
I just sold my TS last week and I would not go back.

Towing and assembling and launching leaves me so tired it takes the fun out of it. Once sold I was seriously considering buying into a fixed keel syndicate or even just chartering every couple of months and letting someone else do all the maintenance.

I get precious little time on the water..... I will not spend it wrestling with a mast.

The only good thing about it from a newbie point of view is that its a good way to learn and get into sailing with relatively low risk. But once you know what youre doing its time to move on and not look back.
boty
boty
QLD
685 posts
QLD, 685 posts
10 May 2017 2:43pm
dreamliner said..
Not a real TS fan but Ive always liked the look of the Masrm 720


absolutely love them Merv built a great boat his workmanship and eye for a fair line was great but maybe a bit lively for a young family and is well over the 20 foot and i doubt you would get one in reasonable condition for that price
dkd
dkd
SA
131 posts
dkd dkd
SA, 131 posts
10 May 2017 2:18pm
Having sailed and owned both Ts and keelboats, my choice would be a Castle 650 or a little Gem 550

but I am not now nor ever will be a cruising person .... both have decent room and decent performance.

My two bobs worth
slammin
slammin
QLD
998 posts
QLD, 998 posts
10 May 2017 3:41pm
Since so many people here are so disparaging of TSers I suggest you are in the wrong T_ _ _ _ _ _sailerplace. a bit more looking and you'll find a whole bunch of people who know how to TS.

This came up not so long ago either. A thread search may help.

As for my 2c, I love ts'ing. If mast raising is so hard you're doing it wrong. I have zero knowledge of the size you're interested in so I'll move along.
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
10 May 2017 4:31pm
The choice between a keelboat and a trailer/ sailer is complicated these days by the high cost of slipping and anti-fouling for a keelboat, as well as mooring costs, and particularly in the Sydney area.

I know that when the wind is howling I can sleep more soundly knowing my T/S is safely at the bottom of the garden, rather than swinging wildly on her mooring. Sitting under a cover, there is no deterioration if I dont use her. Yes, launch/retrieve/preparation is a hassle. My solution is to make a weekend of it and overnight on the boat.
Conclusion is that if you have the time, or lots of money, to spend on a keelboat, that is the best. If you are time poor, and still want to explore different sailing areas, a T/S is a good solution.
kurt88
kurt88
NSW
147 posts
NSW, 147 posts
10 May 2017 6:28pm
I down sized for a trailable trimaran after I sold my H28, sold it 3 months latter and bought a 38 footer. it was a good idea on paper but it didn't work out for me.
SandS
SandS
VIC
5904 posts
VIC, 5904 posts
10 May 2017 9:31pm
keep the top hat
rande
rande
NSW
17 posts
NSW, 17 posts
11 May 2017 9:05am
We had a Princess 18 for a while when we were at a similar family stage. Spent a few nights on it with the kids. It would never win races but sailed well enough to be enjoyable and was incredibly roomy for it's length with a raised foredeck and twin daggerboards. I sold it for an Endeavour 26 (which I have since sold) but often wish I had kept the Princess. We may not have used it more frequently, but were able to easily use it in more places. We are at Lake Macquarie so just an hour or two to Myall Lakes, Port Stephens, Hawkesbury, Sydney Harbour and Port Hacking plus some visits to inland dams.

No real difference in set up time in my experience. Load up the TS at home in the drive way and drop it in the water at the ramp. We were on the water in the same time it would take to row out to the mooring. I could raise the mast myself by hand easily enough on the Princess - even out on the water while we were motoring away from the ramp.

Spent 3 days at Port Stephens with each of those boats in similar conditions. Found the TS much better with little kids to be pulled up on the shore rather than rowing backwards and forwards. On the flip side - enjoyed the headroom of the Endeavour.

Pros and cons.

All the best,
Richard.
rumblefish
rumblefish
TAS
824 posts
TAS, 824 posts
11 May 2017 9:07am
I reckon the overall time you spend on extra maintenance on a 25ft yacht over a 20ft T/S would more than outweigh the time for setup/packup.
With a T/S, if it's taking you more than and hour with two people from drive into the boat park to sail away, you're def doing it wrong!!
Back in the day we had Hartley TS16's. With my brother and I we could be motoring away from the club less than 20min after driving in.
If you keep the boat at home you can fill the esky at home before you leave, have it and all your bags in the boat already, you can really save on setup time.
Same with maintenance, easy to pop down the shed to work on the boat of an evening where all your tools are etc.
knight
knight
NSW
60 posts
NSW, 60 posts
23 May 2017 7:24am
Wow, I didn't expect this level if response, thanks for everyone's thoughts.

A few answers to questions and clarification.
As Yarra said, my job moves me around the country on a semi-regular basis, and at the moment I'm in Sydney and the yacht is still in Newcastle. I'm on the list for a mooring down here, though how long that will take is anyone's guess. So yes, having the ability to take the boat with me when I move is definitely a part of the decision.

[Quote]Knight, what sort of a sailor are you? Do you like overnighting? Do you like to tweak, or like to set and forget? What sort of launching ramp do you have? Do you want to take the boat right into a beach, or anchor out?[/Quote]
I've been around boats on and off for quite a while, but normally I've been crewing on races, my Top hat is the first boat I've owned and regularly used. And I've definitely learnt a lot by doing more than races.

I do enjoy overnighting and loved the couple of weekends I spent moving the yacht up north originally. However, I am time poor, mostly as a result of family commitments, and Sailing away for a few days on the yacht up and down the coast just isn't possible at the moment. (When the children are of a suitable age however, I would love to take 12 months off work, put them in school of the internet and sail them around the country for a year - but that is definitely a future plan, and will need a larger yacht for that anyway)

I don't have a specific beach/launching ramp in mind. My wife however definitely does like the idea of pulling the boat in close to the beach, rather than a row out to a mooring (she isn't a fan of the inflatable dinghy we have)

I enjoy tinkering in electronics, however as can be seen from my previous posts both here and elsewhere about maintenance, I'm fairly hesitate and very much only starting to learn how to do the hardware tinkering, though the skills I have learnt have been good and very much enjoying learning.

I recognise that everything is a compromise and that everything has a cost (in time or otherwise) as well as a benefit.
Do I think a TS will be the yacht I own for the long term? No, I think I will want to do more than I can with a TS in the future, but I have to recognise that I (and more so my family) are not in the right place for that sort of Sailing at the moment. I have to be realistic with what is achievable at the moment. I did consider going all the way down to a large dinghy, but I don't want to lose the ability to have holidays on mostly enclosed areas, where as a dinghy really limits me to just a couple of hours on the water.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts, it's been good to see other opinions
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