The Kraken guy is blatantly biased because he makes his living partly out of dissing boats with bolt on keels. Yet the reality is that there are many very popular designs with bolt-on keels that have no available evidence of any keel issues with bolt on keels, even after many decades in which many of them have received little care.

One may as well listen to a Ford dealer about why Fords are better than Toyotas.

Surely Kraken is Toyota? Built to be abused.

My boat has an integral keel. One less thing to worry about (hopefully). My next boat probably will have a bolty.

shaggybaxter said..
Seems a tad blinkered. My last boat had a single bolt, no epoxy, no glassing in or 'paste' as he calls it on an encapsulated keel. The design has been around since the 80's, has a squillion blue water miles and has never had even a single failure.
We hit a whale one night at planing speeds that felt just like a car crash. Resultant damage? Some new antiifoul and an o-ring, no damage to the hull,grid or keel at all.
Methinks he doth like the sound of his own voice a bit too much.

What about the Farr X2- two bolts, and it fell off....
And what about the poor whale.....
IMHO if you are going to have bolts, go bronze. Stainless and crevice corrosion is a killer, literally.

Yara said..

shaggybaxter said..
Seems a tad blinkered. My last boat had a single bolt, no epoxy, no glassing in or 'paste' as he calls it on an encapsulated keel. The design has been around since the 80's, has a squillion blue water miles and has never had even a single failure.
We hit a whale one night at planing speeds that felt just like a car crash. Resultant damage? Some new antiifoul and an o-ring, no damage to the hull,grid or keel at all.
Methinks he doth like the sound of his own voice a bit too much.

What about the Farr X2- two bolts, and it fell off....
And what about the poor whale.....
IMHO if you are going to have bolts, go bronze. Stainless and crevice corrosion is a killer, literally.

It's just not logical to compare a brand new and defective ultra-high aspect bulb keel boat with a traditional bolt-on keel boat. The dimensions, forces and track records are completely different.

If you want to live life without relying on bolts then for god's sake don't EVER use a car, truck, bus, plane, bicycle, mast, boom, trailer, chair or something else equally lethal.

Come on, tell us how many people have been killed by yachts built in the '60s-'80s due to faiures with stainless bolts. You made the claim, you provide proof.

Yara said..
Engineering 101 that stainless steel suffers from crevice corrosion. Many examples seen on boats every day. Yes older boats don't drop their keels because more conservative design, and they leak long before dropping off. However, a repair is probably going to cost more than the boat is worth. If the corrosion happens in the rigging, which is common, a falling mast can kill. OK, not killed by the keel, but still deadly.

At the end of the day if annual / bi-annual checks are carried out on the bolts and replaced as required there should be no issue. Especially on older keel attachment systems.

saltiest1 said..

Yara said..
Engineering 101 that stainless steel suffers from crevice corrosion. Many examples seen on boats every day. Yes older boats don't drop their keels because more conservative design, and they leak long before dropping off. However, a repair is probably going to cost more than the boat is worth. If the corrosion happens in the rigging, which is common, a falling mast can kill. OK, not killed by the keel, but still deadly.

At the end of the day if annual / bi-annual checks are carried out on the bolts and replaced as required there should be no issue. Especially on older keel attachment systems.

It's not like replacing a normal bolt. Typically the lower end is cast into the keel, and a major job to be done on the hard. On the old wooden boats they sometimes left pockets for the lower end, that you could dig out to get to the bottom nut.

saltiest1 said..
Sounds different from mine. Solid lead keel held in place by a series of bolts screwed into a frame cast into the lead (I know the guy that used to make the keels) and I could remove 1 at a time and replace if required, tensioned to a specified Nm. Previous owner had them electronically tested which I found a bit dubious. Fine for breakage but won't show minor corrosion .

As far as I know you can't screw new bolts into the old threads with lead, but you could do this if your a sadist.
We're Cutting Off our Keel (Part 3) | Step 450.

One of my earlier small boats had a frame cast into the keel with female threads allowing bolts to be removed. It was built by a Dutch gent many years older than myself. Not sure it wise for a larger vessel. The S&S had the frame cast into the keel with the usual setup. Could check for corrosion by removal of nuts but that was pretty limiting.

It's also a pretty well researched fact that humans aren't very good at instinctively working out the probabilities of actions that may affect our survival. In particular, we tend to obsess about extremely unusual but spectacular accidents, like keel loss, and all but ignore the slower or less spectacular chronic issues.

The greatest danger to most people here is probably heart disease, followed by dementia, cancer, stroke, accidental poisoning, car accidents, suicide etc. I've run some rough numbers and going off those we were at the same danger every day on an offshore race as we are sitting at home or going to the office.

My father was killed sailing when I was a kid and so have several other people I have known. I have been involved in the search for some of them. I have a morbid and practical interest in safety and a collection of sailing mags going back to the 1890s. Going off that database, keel loss involving a conservative bolt-on fin keel has killed, accordings far as my long and morbid collection of sailing accidents, ZERO people in Australian waters, and none that I can recall elsewhere.

The Viking 30 Copper Top sank off WA about 1984, as did another V30, but no one died. The crew accounts indicate that maybe they had keel issues, but there is zero actual evidence. I mention that partly to show that my memory for such issues is pretty good. Sure, maybe some vanished boats lost bolted keels - but then again boats with long keels and no bolts have sunk with damage to the garboards and loss of life (Winston Churchill, possibly the Swanson 42 in the same race, etc) so there is no evidence that they are safer.

So given the incredibly good track record of conservative bolt on keels - and I don't think a single "no bolts" person has given an example of an older one falling off despite me repeatedly asking for evidence that it occurs - time spent worrying too much about the issue is time that should be spent addressing the far bigger dangers like health, MOB drills and actually training on sail changes and gybing, which is when one study showed most injuries occur.

That's not to ignore the danger - I had the bolts on my last boat pulled and the ones on the current boat will be checked - but it's a minute danger unless you own a few specific types of keel. And again, if conservative bolt-ons are such a problem why do those who say they are unsafe, not show evidence that such keels have fallen off over the last 50 years?