Let's talk about navigation !

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Boatin
Boatin
NSW
179 posts
NSW, 179 posts
10 Sep 2013 12:05pm
Following Cisco's talk about his tablet with the Navionics GPS mapping, I thought it might be a good topic of discussion as I for one would like to know more about it.
Just bougt the Braun 10.1" tablet with GPS and it takes a 32 gig mini SD card.

So ask away and or tell us of your navigation ideas.
Sunseeker39
Sunseeker39
WA
71 posts
WA, 71 posts
10 Sep 2013 4:17pm
InavX allows you to store waypoints and create routes based on stored points.
Navionics last time I checked does not.
It is however more expensive and you need to join a sky based website to store your data.
But in my view its worth the difference in price and effort.

iregatta app for race starts - import your race route from inavX including start line and then it tells you
how many seconds to the line based on boat speed and angle to line - updated every few seconds.
You'll never miss a start again. All for $10

I use these programs constantly with my racing.
Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7757 posts
NSW, 7757 posts
10 Sep 2013 6:25pm
I use a laptop with a 16 inch screen running Seaclear. You can see it in my photos.

When I update shortly it will be to a 22 inch screen, there is no substitute for screen real estate.
Seamonkey_H2024
Seamonkey_H2024
VIC
344 posts
VIC, 344 posts
10 Sep 2013 8:30pm
I'm just about to purchase a cable that connects my garmin etrex to my pc. This should enable me to run seaclear on my laptop. I forgot I even owned an etrex until today, so it will be good to put it into use. The etrex will be handy mounted under the dodger, the lit display showing heading and speed etc. Splashproof and can be powered by the USB cable from the laptop in the cabin.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GARMIN-eTrex-eMap-Geko-301-etrex-H-PC-interface-GPS-data-USB-connector-/151112371541?pt=AU_Electronics_GPS&hash=item232effcd55&_uhb=1

As previously mentioned - I currently am using the Navionics app on my iphone. Easy to use and cheap if you already own a iphone. I'd recommend this for short weekend cruises where there weather isn't blowing the phone out of your hand. It is also good for saving fishing spots.

For when out of network range you could get buy a gps reciever that plugs into your ipad/iphone, however they also have bluetooth ones now (handy for non mac devices).

I'm really surprised there isn't a bluetooth/wifi tiller pilot that you can connect to with your iphone/ipad and run the whole show from there. It won't be long until someone trumps raymarine with that technology.
oldboyracer
oldboyracer
NSW
292 posts
NSW, 292 posts
10 Sep 2013 9:36pm
Recently installed a raymarine chart plotter as i didnt have a sounder so decided may as well get a combination unit. Prior to that an ipad with navionics which works well, how ever the charts stopped a couple of km before the slips i used last time ( cove marine), quite unnerving with no depth sounder. next time at least i will know the depth. Interestingly the basic navionics on my ipad does not have detailed charts of lake macquarie . I havent looked at the chart plotter for that yet , hoping to drop in there on the way to sydney in a couple of months.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
11 Sep 2013 1:10am
The Navionics on the tablet is only an aid.

My system is:-

1. Carry, and plot, on paper charts for the area of operation using visual bearings such as compass, transits and ranges.

2. Carry and use an up to date deviation table for your compass. Remember, True Virgins Make Dull Company and C.A.D.E.T., the basis of coastal navigation.

3. Carry and use for navigation an accurate sounder that can place you on contour lines.

4. Carry tide tables for the area of operation and use them.

5. If you have radar, congratulations on your bank balance.

6. GPS units and chart plotters are very handy aids to navigation but are not to be relied on in a court of law.
MorningBird
MorningBird
NSW
2711 posts
NSW, 2711 posts
11 Sep 2013 5:18am
I am partly with Cisco.

As one who navigated for a living for many years I believe most yachties know very little about how to navigate safely between two locations. While I use the chart plotter as my primary navigation, I plan the trip using charts, Pilots etc and keep a following plot on a chart.
If you think a chart plotter navigates for you and have limited nav theory, do the Yachtmaster Offshore/Ocean Theory course to understand how dangerous reliance on the plotter can be. Reliance on a plotter is especially dangerous in areas with strong tidal flows and currents.
Boatin
Boatin
NSW
179 posts
NSW, 179 posts
18 Sep 2013 9:45pm
As a newbie to coastal navigation, I am going to take the advice of a mate and plot positions on a chart and follow up with the GPS systems that are available on tablets.

In my 900hours of light aircraft navigation ( a few years back) we did the same on WAC charts but without the GPS backup.
Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7757 posts
NSW, 7757 posts
19 Sep 2013 8:21am
As long as you are aware that not all obstructions show on tablets at various zooms. Remember the accident off Wollongong a few years ago.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
19 Sep 2013 11:29am
Yes. I believe both Cmap and Navionics have data gaps in them which reiterates the official line that "Electronic chart plotters are an aid to navigation only."

I had a look at Quick Charts on HaveFun's laptop and was impressed with the quality and features of the program. It uses raster charts (scanned paper charts from Aus Hydrographic service or Admiralty) so theoretically this is as good as using actual paper charts.

The advantage I see with Seaclear is that charts from other scources (eg in Qld the excellent charts of the Great Sandy Straits and other locations published by McFarlane) can be added into the program's data base.

This does require that the charts are correctly indexed; a task that may be very challenging to many people.

I believe that before anyone ventures on the water in charge of a vessel they are at least morally obliged to have a thorough understanding and ability to practice the fundamentals of coastal navigation.

There is just no substitute for or short cuts to it.
Seamonkey_H2024
Seamonkey_H2024
VIC
344 posts
VIC, 344 posts
19 Sep 2013 11:51am
Do you have to buy the charts for seaclear or do they automatically upload?
LooseChange
LooseChange
NSW
2140 posts
NSW, 2140 posts
19 Sep 2013 7:27pm
SirJman said..

Do you have to buy the charts for seaclear or do they automatically upload?


Read all about it .............
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Sailing/General/Australin-coastal-charts/
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
19 Sep 2013 9:55pm
SirJman said..

Do you have to buy the charts for seaclear or do they automatically upload?


We live in Australia mate, where you pays for everything twice.

The taxpayer funds the Australian Hydrographic Service who make the charts in paper and digital format. Then if you want to use a chart you have to buy it.

In the U.S. their digital charts are available to download for free. They figure the taxpayer has already paid for them and rightly so.
southace
southace
SA
4803 posts
SA, 4803 posts
20 Sep 2013 10:41am
I have been using ipad navionics for the past 2 years...... I have a hand held chart plotter as a back up which I have not needed since Ipad purchase..... I have used the ipad extensively around the whitsundays and as far as lizard island and outer GRB reefs...Torres straits and the gulf...... I have used it simultaneously with $8,000 GPS plotting systems and the charts are very much exactly the same.
The battery life is good and the discharge on house battery is very little when charging. The GPS is in operation with in seconds of opening the program not like some GPS systems that take time to search for satellites.
I sleep with my ipad....and have anchor watch app and can open any program including bom latest weather/wind obsovations.....etc.
I don't have any negatives about this system other than bring on the waterproof case!

Feralfather
Feralfather
WA
25 posts
WA, 25 posts
16 Oct 2013 12:50am
Southace
Which anchor alarm app do you use? I can't find one that doesn't chew out the battery on the not so smart phone.
Thanks,
feral
southace
southace
SA
4803 posts
SA, 4803 posts
16 Oct 2013 2:43pm
Anchor watch.....I only use it in bad conditions now.....my Manson supreme holds so well I don't worry anymore. I dropped the pick in 10mtres with 20mtres chain....I took a snorkel down and the supreme was dug so deep It was even hard work getting it free in the morning....hence conditions where below 5 knots all night!
HaveFun
HaveFun
NSW
201 posts
NSW, 201 posts
16 Oct 2013 11:45pm
Let's get some things sorted here. Like you Boatin, I come from quite a few years aviation background so the Nav basics of charts, tracks and allowance for currents, wind etc were pretty much straight forward when doing the sailing nav course. And that brings me to making sure you are talking about apples or oranges when you talk about what will satisfy your nav need. First there is the passage planning, identifying your waypoints and writing into your sail plan the magnetic tracks, distances and time intervals from your departure point to each waypoint until your destination. Yes you can do all this on paper charts but its often more convenient to use a nav program. With paper charts unless your passage is a short one, you will be going from chart to chart and, in accordance with Murphy's law, your departure point and destination point will not be on the same chart. I purchased QuickCharts ($189 from Whitworths). This is an Australian product which uses MemoryMap as the nav program together with the Australian Raster Charts loaded on, so the maps are the same as the paper charts. Some people have complained it is a bit clunky and I would agree because memorymap was originally intended for bushwalking but I have found a way to make it work for my nav planning and it is pretty cool. It automatically opens the adjoining chart and I can plot the course simply by selecting waypoints by dragging and clicking and the program automatically calculates true and magnetic headings, distances and time intervals. I can even generate and print out the passage plan, including not only the tracks, distances and time intervals but also features along the way and VMR radio frequencies along the way. So having planned your trip and finally casting off on that big day, you are now into a different Nav need. And that is to know where you are. Again, it is always a requirement to have your paper charts on board and to regularly plot your position. But just about everyone these days has some electronic nav system to be sure to be sure, as they say in the Blarney. There are other magic things too that electronic systems can do more efficiently such as giving you the details of the lights you are seeing along the way, tide information and even weather. I have the QuickCharts loaded onto my laptop aand can simply plug a GPS into the USB slot and voila the program tracks my progress on the display. I can see if I am on track or if there is some difference between planned track and track made good due to wind or current and I can then make the necessary correction to my heading. But the laptop is sitting on my chart table down below and I am usually up on deck in the cockpit and on my own more times than not if I am in my own boat. And here is where my Navionics ap loaded onto my Samsung galaxy Note phone comes into its own. I switch it on regularly to check progress and in particular keep it on when navigating channels , reefs or checking depths. No need to run up and down or to have someone yelling out from below. By the way the Navionics does not require a telephone network connection to work. Once loaded onto your phone or pad it works off the phone's inbuilt GPS not the telephone station network. So please be clear when referring to Nav function to distinguish between route planning and position monitoring.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
17 Oct 2013 1:00pm
^^^^Wot he said.

1. Always have paper charts for the area on board and use traditional visual plotting methods to keep your hand in so as to reduce reliance on electronics.

2. Have a stand alone GPS system, be it just a lat/long readout or integrated to a chart plotter of one kind or another that resides at the chart table. I think Quick Charts is a bargain for Aus coastal cruising.

3. If possible, and it is and affordable, have an on deck independent plotter console for close waters in low light conditions.

At $13.99, Navionics is the bargain of the century. All it needs is a few mb of memory and a device with an internal GPS receiver.(It does not accept an external GPS signal.)

Once you are moving it automatically displays speed and heading and scrolls the map display. It has trip planning, route and track functions. One of the great features of the program is the ability to edit your maps with your own observations and even add photos to points of interest.

I am more than chuffed with my Aldi Tablet with Navionics on it. To achieve the same size display and charting quality in a brand name device such as Garmin, Magellan, North Star, RayMarine etc will cost around $2,500, ten times the price.

As somebody else said, "Bring on the waterproof tablets and cases." The demand is there and they will no doubt happen in the not too distant future.
Boatin
Boatin
NSW
179 posts
NSW, 179 posts
20 Oct 2013 8:33pm
Must agree Cisco, can't believe how good my Aldi tablet is and the Navionics is so cool !
brizzydave
brizzydave
406 posts
406 posts
20 Oct 2013 8:50pm
My two cents......from a different perspective.

My boat berths at a rickety old jetty up a mangrove creek that has silted up over the years.

At low tide, the creek is dry or has a few inches of water in it. The deep section or "channel" at low tide is fifteen feet wide and two feet deep.

The position of the red n green beacons mean nothing here. Once the muddy old tide comes up, the secret channel is covered from view. It takes half an hour to motor out through this nightmare.

So I went out in the dinghy and recorded a track in navionics. Rowing through water six inches deep. My hope was to recorded a track and be able to follow it at bigger tides in the year to get my boat that draws 1.2 m out the creek into moreton bay

So today I tried to follow/use the track as a guide so I didn't run aground again. ( last time I had to jump out into neck deep water and pushed on a falling tide mega stressed out)

So that set the scene of my reliance on navionics........

The yellow track line is a little thick on my phone at lowest resolution/size/magnification etc......but it totally worked!!!!


<div>Anyway.....I don't (and would never) rely on this to navigate a seventy foot yacht to Tahiti .....just because.....but it works like a charm. The paper charts gather mould now.
brizzydave
brizzydave
406 posts
406 posts
20 Oct 2013 9:11pm
My point is.....I'm trying to navigate a very slim long shallow channel with heaps of current ....and risk my boat. Impossible without this app.
Jedibrad
Jedibrad
NSW
527 posts
NSW, 527 posts
21 Oct 2013 9:54am
My opinion is this, computers are for work and a bit of time wasting etc..

I really enjoy scribbling on my charts and vectoring with the hand bearing compass, keeps me sharp.

Also I've had to point out to others, more than once, using a plotter zoomed out with their route leading over land or a hazard
MorningBird
MorningBird
NSW
2711 posts
NSW, 2711 posts
21 Oct 2013 10:29am
I'm a bit like Jedibrad in that I like stuffing around with charts, but having made the odd one or two nav errors in my Navy days I now use the chart plotter as my primary navigation tool and the charts as a backup. I plan on charts and then put it on the chart plotter
It is too easy when navigating manually to make mistakes, particularly misplotting your position.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
21 Oct 2013 11:29am
@ brizzydave

What you have done illustrates the absolute beauty of these devices and Navionics.

That can now be edited into the chart on your device and it can be shared with other users online. Well done mate.

@ MorningBird & Jedibrad

Absolutely agree with those philosophies. Using traditional methods keeps you sharp and using another method to crosscheck keeps you safe.
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