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Question of what boat has right of way

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Created by Donk107 5 months ago, 18 Jan 2019
Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:14PM
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Here is a question for those in the know

2 boats are racing (A & B) and they have left the start mark and are sailing to the turning mark

Boat A is ahead for most of the way but boat B catches her and overtakes her but takes a wider course around the mark whereas A turns closer to the mark and when they leave the mark A is ahead again

Both boats are on starboard tack and B starts to overtake A and is heading back to the starting mark which is the correct course but A believes that the course is around the bay mark before returning to the start mark and starts to head down towards the bay mark and closing up beside B and forcing B to alter course away from the start mark to prevent both of the boats coming together

B finally overtakes A and heads back towards the starting mark and A starts to head towards the bay mark

The crew on B ask A where he is heading and A says into the bay and the crew on B inform him that the correct course is back to the start mark

The question i have is when A and B were beside each other and A was pushing B down towards the bay mark instead of letting him sail the correct course back to the start mark which boat had the right of way

Regards Don


riverider
TAS, 935 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:33PM
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If B has an overlap they can luff A up

MorningBird
NSW, 2167 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:34PM
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Upwind boat gives way if both are on the same tack.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:37PM
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Hi Don,
when overlapped, the windward boat must keep clear of the leeward boat. (Rule10)

If the leeward boat gains the overlap by overtaking , and does so within two boats lengths to leeward, she shall not sail above her proper course whilst overlapped (rule 17)

From what you describe, A has no rights, B has right of way.

Subsonic
WA, 1644 posts
18 Jan 2019 4:41PM
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Donk107 said..
Here is a question for those in the know

2 boats are racing (A & B) and they have left the start mark and are sailing to the turning mark

Boat A is ahead for most of the way but boat B catches her and overtakes her but takes a wider course around the mark whereas A turns closer to the mark and when they leave the mark A is ahead again

Both boats are on starboard tack and B starts to overtake A and is heading back to the starting mark which is the correct course but A believes that the course is around the bay mark before returning to the start mark and starts to head down towards the bay mark and closing up beside B and forcing B to alter course away from the start mark to prevent both of the boats coming together

B finally overtakes A and heads back towards the starting mark and A starts to head towards the bay mark

The crew on B ask A where he is heading and A says into the bay and the crew on B inform him that the correct course is back to the start mark

The question i have is when A and B were beside each other and A was pushing B down towards the bay mark instead of letting him sail the correct course back to the start mark which boat had the right of way

Regards Don




Boat B has right of way being leeward boat (based on diagram and what you've said). Where the next mark is, is to a degree irrelevant unless you're within the 2 boat lengths from the mark. In which case boat b has to turn at the mark.

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:41PM
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Thanks to all who have replied so far

Thanks for that and you have confirmed what i thought was correct

If the course was actually into the bay (as A believed it was) before returning to the start mark and B was preventing A from sailing towards the bay mark would A have any right of way

Regards Don

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:47PM
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If the course was actually into the bay (as A believed it was) before returning to the start mark and B was preventing A from sailing towards the bay mark would A have any right of way

Regards Don




Don, A only has rights if B achieved overlap from leeward and astern within two boat lengths. B must sail her proper course till overlap is broken.

Other than that, B can luff them all the way to the horizon.

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:52PM
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Hi Shaggy

When you say within 2 boat lengths i assume you mean if A was 20 foot long and B started to overtake A at a side by side distance of closer than 40 feet A would then have right of way

Is this correct

Regards Don

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:56PM
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Donk107 said..
Hi Shaggy

When you say within 2 boat lengths i assume you mean if A was 20 foot long and B started to overtake A at a side by side distance of closer than 40 feet A would then have right of way

Is this correct

Regards Don




You got it!

Edit: B is only required to sail her proper course though. A can't be stupid and bear away into B obviously.

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:01PM
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Hi Shaggy

Thanks for that

What about if B was happy to maintain 40 feet clearance between the boats while overtaking but because A thought the correct course was into the bay and was closing up on B reducing the distance to less than 40 feet does that mean that A then had right of way and it was up to B to sail further off course to prevent a collision and if a collision had happened B would have been at fault

Regards Don

SandS
VIC, 5627 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:05PM
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in that drawing A has no rights . and from your description

but , the angle of the start to the wind looks atrocious ?

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:06PM
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B is sailing her proper course to the next mark. If A has a blonde moment and decides that they sail off to some other mark and start pushing down onto B, Rule 10 applies. The windward boat must give way to the leeward boat.

B cannot sail abover her proper course.
A must give way to B.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:10PM
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Collisions are different Don, as you must do everything you can to avoid, even if you're in the right.

if A pushes down on B and is going to collide , B protests but must do everything possible to avoid

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:13PM
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Hi Sands

I guess you are saying it was a poor choice of course by the person who set the course but this was only a small section of the actual course in the middle of the race with the bay mark being used and another mark further down and on the windward side of the turning mark i have shown and being Tassie and sailing on a river with hills and valleys the wind speed and direction is constantly changing so nothing stays the same for too long

Last night at 6 pm the wind at the starters box was 6 Knots NE, at 7 pm 4 Knots SW and at 7.10 pm 6 Knots SE

Regards Don

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:22PM
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shaggybaxter said..
Collisions are different Don, as you must do everything you can to avoid, even if you're in the right.

if A pushes down on B and is going to collide , B protests but must do everything possible to avoid


Hi Shaggy

During the overtaking move A closed up on B to the point where A's boom was hanging over B and the skipper on A was telling B that if a collision happened B would be in the wrong

B continued to sail towards the start mark but A probably could have altered course 30 degrees to starboard to prevent a collision before they would have been headed

Regards Don

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:37PM
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SandS said..
in that drawing A has no rights . and from your description

but , the angle of the start to the wind looks atrocious ?



Hi Sands

The course for the race was F and the incident happened on the S to T to S leg in the middle of the race

Regards Don




SandS
VIC, 5627 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:58PM
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sorry Don i misunderstood . i was thinking they started you with the wind on your beam as you headed to the turning mark . that would be a crap angle for a start line

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 8:14PM
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SandS said..
sorry Don i misunderstood . i was thinking they started you with the wind on your beam as you headed to the turning mark . that would be a crap angle for a start line


No worries

Regards Don

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 8:16PM
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Donk107 said..



shaggybaxter said..
Collisions are different Don, as you must do everything you can to avoid, even if you're in the right.

if A pushes down on B and is going to collide , B protests but must do everything possible to avoid





Hi Shaggy

During the overtaking move A closed up on B to the point where A's boom was hanging over B and the skipper on A was telling B that if a collision happened B would be in the wrong

B continued to sail towards the start mark but A probably could have altered course 30 degrees to starboard to prevent a collision before they would have been headed

Regards Don




I was just talking to a mate who was on the 40' start line for Hobart. He mentioned how careful everyone was getting out of the heads, and how they got waved through on a couple of close crosses.
Thats seamanship. Rubbing paint is a dick move in my eyes. Protest them and stay out of the way.

A needs a beer and a quiet word by the sounds of it.

Donk107
TAS, 2208 posts
18 Jan 2019 8:26PM
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shaggybaxter said..


Donk107 said..





shaggybaxter said..
Collisions are different Don, as you must do everything you can to avoid, even if you're in the right.

if A pushes down on B and is going to collide , B protests but must do everything possible to avoid







Hi Shaggy

During the overtaking move A closed up on B to the point where A's boom was hanging over B and the skipper on A was telling B that if a collision happened B would be in the wrong

B continued to sail towards the start mark but A probably could have altered course 30 degrees to starboard to prevent a collision before they would have been headed

Regards Don






I was just talking to a mate who was on the 40' start line for Hobart. He mentioned how careful everyone was getting out of the heads, and how they got waved through on a couple of close crosses.
Thats seamanship. Rubbing paint is a dick move in my eyes. Protest them and stay out of the way.

A needs a beer and a quiet word by the sounds of it.



Hi Shaggy

I think the problem was that A wondered why B was sailing so far off what he thought was the course and B wondered why A was leaning on him instead of sailing to the mark

The good thing was we are all mates down here and there was no raised voices and everyone remained calm even when there was only a couple of feet between the boats and A apologised when he realised he had the course wrong but it was confusing at the time

Regards Don

Subsonic
WA, 1644 posts
18 Jan 2019 6:35PM
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Donk107 said..

shaggybaxter said..


Donk107 said..





shaggybaxter said..
Collisions are different Don, as you must do everything you can to avoid, even if you're in the right.

if A pushes down on B and is going to collide , B protests but must do everything possible to avoid







Hi Shaggy

During the overtaking move A closed up on B to the point where A's boom was hanging over B and the skipper on A was telling B that if a collision happened B would be in the wrong

B continued to sail towards the start mark but A probably could have altered course 30 degrees to starboard to prevent a collision before they would have been headed

Regards Don






I was just talking to a mate who was on the 40' start line for Hobart. He mentioned how careful everyone was getting out of the heads, and how they got waved through on a couple of close crosses.
Thats seamanship. Rubbing paint is a dick move in my eyes. Protest them and stay out of the way.

A needs a beer and a quiet word by the sounds of it.



Hi Shaggy

I think the problem was that A wondered why B was sailing so far off course and B wondered why A was leaning on him

The good thing was we are all mates down here and there was no raised voices and everyone remained calm even when there was only a couple of feet between the boats and A apologised when he realised he had the course wrong but it was confusing at the time

Regards Don


Good to know you're all mates.

I dunno how you'd open the conversation being mates and all, but it would probably be a good thing for A to be set straight on the fact that where the next mark of the course is, is irrelevant to right of way rules. Lest he try it on someone else.

Hopefully if it came to it, it would only be a protest that set him straight, and not a collision.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 8:38PM
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Hi Don,
Its great to hear you're all good mates, that's more important to me than a tin cup. But even if B had the wrong mark, unless you overlapped from close astern , A has no rights and you could luff A till he was head to wind and in irons if you wanted.

I still see this a fair bit where two boats get caught up in a luffing game, and they forget there are other boats in the race. The rest of the fleet will be grinning from ear to ear as the clear lane opens up and they sail right past

Edit: Sorry, I see Subsonic already has referred to the same point.

FreeRadical
WA, 836 posts
18 Jan 2019 7:13PM
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Just remember, proper course means fastest course to finish the race and not necessarily a direct course to the next mark etc. So even if the bay mark was the next mark, B might still have been sailing THEIR proper course to finish as fast as possible.

Prior to the START SIGNAL, there is no proper course, so you can luff a windward boat as you like.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Jan 2019 9:19PM
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FreeRadical said..
Just remember, proper course means fastest course to finish the race and not necessarily a direct course to the next mark etc. So even if the bay mark was the next mark, B might still have been sailing THEIR proper course to finish as fast as possible.

Prior to the START SIGNAL, there is no proper course, so you can luff a windward boat as you like.


Thanks and good point FR. This can get really interesting on the downwind legs when you've got aso and symmetrical boats in the same fleet!

EC31
NSW, 406 posts
20 Jan 2019 11:26PM
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In Friday twilights at our club, not many call protest 'cause it appears that not many know the rules.

An incident last Friday in our racing at a mark that I happen to be a spectator to. A Dehler 41 & S80 both on starboard approaching a port rounding mark located in an area known as the Burmuda Triangle (where the wind can come from anywhere including downwards). S80 gets to his 3 boat lengths before the Dehler gets an inside overlap but the breeze dies. Dehler goes under S80, carrying momentum, but the breeze returns and the S80 needs to bear off to get going again. Much yelling ensures, the Dehler calling up and S80 calling for mark room. It would have been funny except they came very, very close to a 1 knot collision.

Gravy7
NSW, 197 posts
22 Jan 2019 12:57PM
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The Dehler is in the wrong and has no rights after becoming overlapped on the inside within the 3 boat length circle.

However, I can't see how the S80 can call for room at the mark if the Dehler is below her. The correct call should be 'give me room to sail a proper course'.

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat markroom. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to markroom, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.

Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence
of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1659 posts
22 Jan 2019 1:09PM
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Thanks Gravy, that was a very clear/succinct description.

EC31
NSW, 406 posts
22 Jan 2019 3:17PM
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Gravy7 said..
The Dehler is in the wrong and has no rights after becoming overlapped on the inside within the 3 boat length circle.

However, I can't see how the S80 can call for room at the mark if the Dehler is below her. The correct call should be 'give me room to sail a proper course'.

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat markroom. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to markroom, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.

Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence
of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.


Yep, absolutely correct. The S80 was so rattled by the incident that they then sailed to the wrong next mark (followed the Dehler who was in a different division) and finished a long way last. They were leading the series in their division up until then.

Gravy7
NSW, 197 posts
22 Jan 2019 5:20PM
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I get very annoyed by the behavior of larger yachts' skippers in twilight races. We are 33' and when we have worked our butts off to get to the windward mark first, the 40 plus footers behind seem to think they can waltz through unchallenged to windward on the reaching legs despite having taller masts and larger sails that could easily sail through below.

This week it was a Hanse 40. When we luffed them up, one of the crew shouted indignantly 'Hold your course'!

One should give them a love tap and fly the red flag but its only a twilight race, not sheep stations. Luckily we are allowed a cold beer each downwind - otherwise my blood would boil. :-)

EC31
NSW, 406 posts
22 Jan 2019 10:10PM
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I had a Sydney 38 try that on me a few years ago. I took him from north of Scotland Is to Morning Bay (mark was at Long Nose). He got rather cross, as did his no-idea crew. But he never tried it on me again......

frant
VIC, 1219 posts
23 Jan 2019 10:49AM
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EC31 said..
I had a Sydney 38 try that on me a few years ago. I took him from north of Scotland Is to Morning Bay (mark was at Long Nose). He got rather cross, as did his no-idea crew. But he never tried it on me again......


I presume you are talking about a pursuit start non spinacre twilight races. When the faster boat rolls you you are done but he can still pass the other slow boats ahead and is still in the race. Taking him up is considered poor form and you could be known as " one of those pricks" who will luff to the horizon irrespective of your own loss. Better to dive down low, let the faster boat past at minimum pain to yourself and concentrate on catching the slower boats ahead whom you no doubt pass to Windward.



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"Question of what boat has right of way" started by Donk107