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Racing Rules of Sailing (Rules 24-1 and 14 apply)

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Created by Bundeenabuoy Thursday, 13 Sep 2018
Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 184 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 12:17PM
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Boats are sailing around in the starting area before the race committee has made any signals.
Can boats be penalised for breaking a rule when they are not racing?

I hope this post does not offend anyone.
I thought a few revision questions might refresh a few memories and stimulate some interesting comments.

lydia
636 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 11:03AM
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Boats are racing only after prep signal but Part 2 applies before that.
Both 24-1 and 14 are in Part 2.

But RRs will only apply in those states which have sorted out the Col Regs/ RRS issue.
In NSW the boats will need to be the same race for Part 2 to apply however.
Only NSW has the extra Col Reg special Rule 1A at this point.

Other states will depend on the marine permit and whether it was lawfully issued.

SandS
VIC, 5202 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 7:50PM
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24.1

If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.


this would apply to stern chaser starts

SandS
VIC, 5202 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 7:56PM
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14

AVOIDING CONTACT


A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-roomneed not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.



in other words all boats should avoid contact , even a boat with right of way .


shaggybaxter
QLD, 1115 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 9:37PM
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SandS said..





















14




AVOIDING CONTACT





A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-roomneed not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.



in other words all boats should avoid contact , even a boat with right of way .







Had my first tickle on the race course from a guy this weekend that failed to follow this.
Start line lay was a reach, we're lined up to cross near the start boat. Further down the line to by two boat lengths to leeward, a 26' suddenly luffs hard toward us, hollering for mark room. He was yelling how he couldn't let me in as we'd blanket him.
I watched him come up onto our line, he's still heading for , and pushng us toward, the start boat, I'm thinking he will fall back soon. Nope. I throw the boat hard over, we bump him with the transom on the turn and end up with the startboat fending off our bowsprit as we go around.
I was really quite shocked at the ease of which he decided a collision was ok. I get he was in the rules to luff me, but seriously? Last time I checked we're not racing for sheep stations.

hoop
WA, 1343 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 8:50PM
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shaggybaxter said..

SandS said..



























14





AVOIDING CONTACT






A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-roomneed not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.



in other words all boats should avoid contact , even a boat with right of way .








Had my first tickle on the race course from a guy this weekend that failed to follow this.
Start line lay was a reach, we're lined up to cross near the start boat. Further down the line to by two boat lengths to leeward, a 26' suddenly luffs hard toward us, hollering for mark room. He was yelling how he couldn't let me in as we'd blanket him.
I watched him come up onto our line, he's still heading for , and pushng us toward, the start boat, I'm thinking he will fall back soon. Nope. I throw the boat hard over, we bump him with the transom on the turn and end up with the startboat fending off our bowsprit as we go around.
I was really quite shocked at the ease of which he decided a collision was ok. I get he was in the rules to luff me, but seriously? Last time I checked we're not racing for sheep stations.


Did he sail above his proper course to the next mark? If not then you were barging. It's up to you to get out the way. If you're racing you have to play by the rules. You can't just fall back on how seriously each individual is taking it.

Subsonic
WA, 1325 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 9:29PM
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Select to expand quote
hoop said..


shaggybaxter said..



SandS said..







































14







AVOIDING CONTACT








A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-roomneed not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.



in other words all boats should avoid contact , even a boat with right of way .










Had my first tickle on the race course from a guy this weekend that failed to follow this.
Start line lay was a reach, we're lined up to cross near the start boat. Further down the line to by two boat lengths to leeward, a 26' suddenly luffs hard toward us, hollering for mark room. He was yelling how he couldn't let me in as we'd blanket him.
I watched him come up onto our line, he's still heading for , and pushng us toward, the start boat, I'm thinking he will fall back soon. Nope. I throw the boat hard over, we bump him with the transom on the turn and end up with the startboat fending off our bowsprit as we go around.
I was really quite shocked at the ease of which he decided a collision was ok. I get he was in the rules to luff me, but seriously? Last time I checked we're not racing for sheep stations.




Did he sail above his proper course to the next mark? If not then you were barging. It's up to you to get out the way. If you're racing you have to play by the rules. You can't just fall back on how seriously each individual is taking it.



Its been quite a while since i've been on the race course, so correct me if im wrong. From memory the start line must be crossed, but the start marks don't form part of course marks, that is "water at the mark" isn't a call that can be made.

hoop
WA, 1343 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 9:41PM
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I think the point is that you can't just jam your boat in between the leeward boat and the start boat.
That's one of the most basic of racing rules.

Toph
WA, 1265 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 9:47PM
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I bought my boat with a 50/50 mindset to get involved with racing....

Im putting davits on my boat and am now 100% cruising. I sail to relax

Subsonic
WA, 1325 posts
Thursday , 13 Sep 2018 10:26PM
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hoop said..
I think the point is that you can't just jam your boat in between the leeward boat and the start boat.
That's one of the most basic of racing rules.


No, you absolutely can't, which fits in with what i was saying.

Im a little confused with why the other boat was calling for "mark room" if they were sitting at the start boat though? Was he calling no room at the mark? Or was it an extraordinarily short start line?

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1115 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 5:09AM
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Select to expand quote
hoop said..



shaggybaxter said..




SandS said..













































14








AVOIDING CONTACT









A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-roomneed not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.



in other words all boats should avoid contact , even a boat with right of way .











Had my first tickle on the race course from a guy this weekend that failed to follow this.
Start line lay was a reach, we're lined up to cross near the start boat. Further down the line to by two boat lengths to leeward, a 26' suddenly luffs hard toward us, hollering for mark room. He was yelling how he couldn't let me in as we'd blanket him.
I watched him come up onto our line, he's still heading for , and pushng us toward, the start boat, I'm thinking he will fall back soon. Nope. I throw the boat hard over, we bump him with the transom on the turn and end up with the startboat fending off our bowsprit as we go around.
I was really quite shocked at the ease of which he decided a collision was ok. I get he was in the rules to luff me, but seriously? Last time I checked we're not racing for sheep stations.





Did he sail above his proper course to the next mark? If not then you were barging. It's up to you to get out the way. If you're racing you have to play by the rules. You can't just fall back on how seriously each individual is taking it.




Absolutely, he sailed above his proper course. That's wrong when applied to the barometer of say common sense, but technically right when applied to the rules, as there is no proper course before the start.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1115 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 5:30AM
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Subsonic said..





hoop said..
I think the point is that you can't just jam your boat in between the leeward boat and the start boat.
That's one of the most basic of racing rules.







No, you absolutely can't, which fits in with what i was saying.

Im a little confused with why the other boat was calling for "mark room" if they were sitting at the start boat though? Was he calling no room at the mark? Or was it an extraordinarily short start line?






Sorry Subsonic,
I should have done a picture. Please see below. The issue stemmed from the start line was laid with the wind. Bit weird, it's normal to lay a start line at 90 deg to the wind direction, ie: you have to work up/down to windward to get to the 1st mark.
The proper course was straight ahead. He decided to look like a hero and steer 45 degrees above his proper course.
The reason I mention his size, he weighed less than a ton. There was no-one to his leeward, and he decided to swap paint with a 6 ton boat. He went for a hard contact, and by doing so failed to give us turning room to avoid the start boat, hence why we fouled the start boat. It was legal, but a douche move that was unnecessary and dangerous for all concerned, more so to his crew and the poor crew on the start boat.


lydia
636 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 4:35AM
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Not legal shaggy. He has to give you room and opportunity to keep clear
so what you do in that situation is put your helm hard down and if your stern quarter hits him then he has failed to give room and opportunity
that is under the rrs
which race btw as col regs could have applying

hoop
WA, 1343 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 4:51AM
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Shaggy is in the wrong 100%. That's barging. His boat should never have been in that position. Pretty arrogant to do that with a bigger, faster boat and then complain when he shuts you out.
He should have bore away and taken his stern before it was an issue.

SandS
VIC, 5202 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 7:10AM
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the leeward boat was within its rights to pushup the windward barging boat

it was a horrible angle for a startline though ,unless it was a wind shift at the last moment . you should protest the committee !

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1115 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 7:12AM
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lydia said..
Not legal shaggy. He has to give you room and opportunity to keep clear
so what you do in that situation is put your helm hard down and if your stern quarter hits him then he has failed to give room and opportunity
that is under the rrs
which race btw as col regs could have applying





MCC Lydia.
I'm with you on the keeping clear.




Select to expand quote
hoop said..
Shaggy is in the wrong 100%. That's barging. His boat should never have been in that position. Pretty arrogant to do that with a bigger, faster boat and then complain when he shuts you out.
He should have bore away and taken his stern before it was an issue.






You're right Hoop, I was 100% in the wrong for failing to keep clear of a leeward boat, I said that from the first post.
He was worse as he used a rule for the sheer hell of it and did so dangerously.

Disagree re the arrogant move. We were well to windward, we'd been sailing for the line together quite happily prior to this.
The proper course was straight ahead. We were not barging at all.
Why come up at all? He used a lot of the start line to get up to us. We weren't even in the same division, the RC decided a mass start would be a good idea.
Why do it late and aggressively?
Why push it so close to cause a collision?

Serious question: Do you aggressively luff bigger boats in a different div passing you to windward on a start line because you can? I don't.
I'm not that arrogant to apply rules when it's stupid and dangerous to do so.

hoop
WA, 1343 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 5:20AM
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If I was him I would have been pretty pissed off that the bigger, faster boat didn't go low early when he had the chance, but instead opted to steam roll him.
I think the attitude of I'm bigger and faster so you should let me through regardless of the rules is pretty unsportsmanlike.

lydia
636 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 5:30AM
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I did not say that shaggy should have put his boat in there just making the point that the leeward boat has obligations as well
i recall an something in the case book about putting a boat into the start boat and will dig it out in course of the day

Jethrow
NSW, 658 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 7:43AM
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"I watched him come up onto our line, he's still heading for , and pushng us toward, the start boat, I'm thinking he will fall back soon."
Sounds like plenty of room and opportunity given there.

If he'd backed of and let you in would you have then luffed around the front of the start boat and let him through?
Yeah, didn't think so...

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1115 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 8:02AM
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Select to expand quote
hoop said..
If I was him I would have been pretty pissed off that the bigger, faster boat didn't go low early when he had the chance, but instead opted to steam roll him.
I think the attitude of I'm bigger and faster so you should let me through regardless of the rules is pretty unsportsmanlike.


I get what your saying Hoop, I've seen big boat wankers before, all I can tell you is I don't sail like that. We didn't start in a position where I could duck his stern, he was well to leeward, it just didn't make any sense.

Select to expand quote
Jethrow said..
"I watched him come up onto our line, he's still heading for , and pushng us toward, the start boat, I'm thinking he will fall back soon."
Sounds like plenty of room and opportunity given there.

If he'd backed of and let you in would you have then luffed around the front of the start boat and let him through?
Yeah, didn't think so...



Hi Jethrow,
Yep, I'll do it in a heartbeat everytime, ask anyone who's sailed with me. I have no issues at all going around, that's what you do. Hence why I've never hit another boat, well...until now!
What got me riled was not the luff, that's racing, it was the lateness with no prior warning when ample time, and the sheer lack of rhyme or reason in doing so.

Subsonic
WA, 1325 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 6:12AM
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Thanks for the pic shaggy. What hoops says is true though. there quite often is an amount of bias (this one looks quite bad) to one end of the line and its quite a common for boats trying to squeeze in with no rights to get luffed off the end of it. Size isn't a relevant argument when youre racing.

Start lines are often quite hectic, everyone is there, trying to be in the prime spot for the start signal, Its quite a common place for collisions to occur. Given the room to leeward you said he had, when it became clear to him a collision was imminent what he really should have done was avoid the collision and protested you. How that fits in withe fact you were in a different division but on the same start line im not sure. I would absolutely luff someone off the line though if it was going to cost me a spot in the race. Sure, youre not racing for sheep stations, but it is a race, the aim is to finish in front of the others. Playing the rules is absolutely a part of racing.


shaggybaxter
QLD, 1115 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 8:42AM
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Subsonic said..
Thanks for the pic shaggy. What hoops says is true though. there quite often is an amount of bias (this one looks quite bad) to one end of the line and its quite a common for boats trying to squeeze in with no rights to get luffed off the end of it. Size isn't a relevant argument when youre racing.

Start lines are often quite hectic, everyone is there, trying to be in the prime spot for the start signal, Its quite a common place for collisions to occur. Given the room to leeward you said he had, when it became clear to him a collision was imminent what he really should have done was avoid the collision and protested you. How that fits in withe fact you were in a different division but on the same start line im not sure. I would absolutely luff someone off the line though if it was going to cost me a spot in the race. Sure, youre not racing for sheep stations, but it is a race, the aim is to finish in front of the others. Playing the rules is absolutely a part of racing.







All good points, Sub, and I agree with you in every respect. If he had fallen away enough to give me room to swing I would have done so without thinking. I don't barge.

But to luff another boat that is:
sailing her proper course, and
when you're sail way off your proper course to do so, and
You do it late with no warning, and
The line is not congested.

is wrong.

Applying a rule just because you can, gives you a rule win. Doing so when there is no cause and breaking other rules in the process, is still stupid and dangerous and a dick move.

hoop
WA, 1343 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 7:43AM
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Well put Subsonic.
I can sorta see what you're saying there Shaggy but I think the other guy would have been thinking you were being aggressive by not tacking off earlier. He was probably also thinking if this guy's going to barge like that he's not going to give any me clear air after the start either.
Some people get pretty emotional and irrational on the start line!

lydia
636 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 7:45AM
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Faaarck this is now Sailing Anarchy, I am out of here!
The rules threads there go for hundred of pages!

hoop
WA, 1343 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 7:50AM
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lydia said..
Faaarck this is now Sailing Anarchy, I am out of here!
The rules threads there go for hundred of pages!


Ahh relax, it's a light hearted discussion.

Bundeenabuoy
NSW, 184 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 11:20AM
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hoop said..
Well put Subsonic.
I can sorta see what you're saying there Shaggy but I think the other guy would have been thinking you were being aggressive by not tacking off earlier. He was probably also thinking if this guy's going to barge like that he's not going to give any me clear air after the start either.
Some people get pretty emotional and irrational on the start line!





Rule 14a lists an exception to rule 14 that applies to right of way boats.
It says a right of way boat may keep sailing her course. She can identify the boat by name or number and call in a loud voice "no room". i.e. "Number 123 No Room", until the point when it becomes obvious that the other boat is not keeping clear.
From that moment on Rule 14 requires the right of way boat to everything possible to avoid hitting the give way boat.
Who of us hasn't been in Shaggy situation?
Shaggy was the give way boat but the other boat (the right of way boat) may also be penalised for not following Rule 14.
He should have allow Shaggy in and then protested him.

lydia
636 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 9:31AM
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Select to expand quote
hoop said..

lydia said..
Faaarck this is now Sailing Anarchy, I am out of here!
The rules threads there go for hundred of pages!



Ahh relax, it's a light hearted discussion.


H
Me and assorted sock pupets have about 5000 posts on SA over the years!

SandS
VIC, 5202 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 7:43PM
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When a faster boat chooses to overtake to windward in this situation , the leeward boat should always do this . if able to point higher in this situation who wouldn't ?

In my opinion the faster yacht should have chosen to pass to leeward .

If the line had have been set properly , the slower boat would have had no hope ,with a big yacht coming past to windward . He probably couldn't believe his luck .

Most drivers would have done the same , and pushed the windward boat up.

The overtaking boat has to give way . that's another rule ......

All@Sea
TAS, 45 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 8:33PM
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Beam reach, bigger, faster boat to windward? I've been known to let the bigger boat through and try to lock onto their transom to ride their wake. The loss of a boat length can be quickly overcome, and I've made a lot of distance on similar sized boats using this method in fresh breezes. The more wind (and wake) the better.... Having said that, would anyone protest that as receiving (nonconsensual) outside assistance? Sorry for the thread drift.

Chris 249
NSW, 1580 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 10:00PM
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shaggybaxter said..

hoop said..




shaggybaxter said..





SandS said..



















































14









AVOIDING CONTACT










A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-roomneed not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and shall be exonerated if she breaks this rule and the contact does not cause damage or injury.



in other words all boats should avoid contact , even a boat with right of way .












Had my first tickle on the race course from a guy this weekend that failed to follow this.
Start line lay was a reach, we're lined up to cross near the start boat. Further down the line to by two boat lengths to leeward, a 26' suddenly luffs hard toward us, hollering for mark room. He was yelling how he couldn't let me in as we'd blanket him.
I watched him come up onto our line, he's still heading for , and pushng us toward, the start boat, I'm thinking he will fall back soon. Nope. I throw the boat hard over, we bump him with the transom on the turn and end up with the startboat fending off our bowsprit as we go around.
I was really quite shocked at the ease of which he decided a collision was ok. I get he was in the rules to luff me, but seriously? Last time I checked we're not racing for sheep stations.






Did he sail above his proper course to the next mark? If not then you were barging. It's up to you to get out the way. If you're racing you have to play by the rules. You can't just fall back on how seriously each individual is taking it.





Absolutely, he sailed above his proper course. That's wrong when applied to the barometer of say common sense, but technically right when applied to the rules, as there is no proper course before the start.


It's not really wrong when applied to common sense. It's a race. It's really hard for smaller boats if big boats come in and say from the small boat's perspective "f*ck you mate and f*ck the rules, I'm coming through and I'm going to roll over you and stop you dead in my dead air".

With respect, it's your job to foresee these issues. If you don't want people to have to defend their clear air and their chance in the race, then it's best to not make them defend themselves.

Sure, we're not racing for sheep stations, but that applies both ways. If the small boat can be told "hey mate, have your start and your race stuffed up, it's not a serious race" then the big boat can just as fairly be told "hey mate, hang back late and have your race stuffed up, it's not a serious race".

If it's not serious, then there's no reason at all to bend the rules - why bend the rules to win a little race. If it is serious, then there's no reason at all to bend the rules - you definitely shouldn't bend the rules to win a big race.

Chris 249
NSW, 1580 posts
Friday , 14 Sep 2018 10:02PM
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Toph said..
I bought my boat with a 50/50 mindset to get involved with racing....

Im putting davits on my boat and am now 100% cruising. I sail to relax


It depends on what you sail, where you sail, and how to you do it. I've been protested twice, never been DSQd, and only once ever protested. It's often pretty relaxing.



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"Racing Rules of Sailing (Rules 24-1 and 14 apply)" started by Bundeenabuoy