Vibration problem ??

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Lexmark
Lexmark
VIC
218 posts
VIC, 218 posts
30 Sep 2015 6:56pm
Vibration problem

New shaft
New cuttless bearing
Renewed gear box
Folding prop checked out all OK
New "P" bracket
All done by qualified ship wright and Marine mechanic

Sea trials today............still vibrating ????????????

WHY........??
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
30 Sep 2015 7:49pm
If I was local I would use my reed tachometer to try to establish the frequency of the vibration. This could help find the cause. Does it vibrate the same amount through the rev range? Can you get access to the drive components to put your hand on them or touch with a screwdriver to the ear to get some clues?
SandS
SandS
VIC
5904 posts
VIC, 5904 posts
30 Sep 2015 7:52pm

first port of call should be the contractor of course . under guarantee

could be any thing in the drive train

but motor alignment to shaft would be high on his list to check

MorningBird
MorningBird
NSW
2711 posts
NSW, 2711 posts
30 Sep 2015 7:58pm
Shaft out of alignment??
Libran
Libran
92 posts
92 posts
30 Sep 2015 6:17pm
Engine mounts??
Lexmark
Lexmark
VIC
218 posts
VIC, 218 posts
30 Sep 2015 8:25pm
Thanks, Yes it could be any number, just a bit Pi....off that all, weeks of waiting.....and now..............
andy59
andy59
QLD
1156 posts
QLD, 1156 posts
30 Sep 2015 9:09pm
Lexmark said..
Thanks, Yes it could be any number, just a bit Pi....off that all, weeks of waiting.....and now..............


I feel for you Lexmark. Thats a massive investment in time and money only to still have the original problem. But new a new shaft, P bracket and cutless bearing along with the gearbox refurb can only be good things for the future.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
30 Sep 2015 9:11pm

You still have it Steve!! The one thing you did not mention above is engine mounts. You have checked those haven't you???

All engines will vibrate to a certain degree and they all seem to have their "sweet spot" and their "sour spot".

Is it really that bad???

When the shipwright and marine mechanic had done their work, did they go for a sea or basin trial with you?? That is what a marine mechanic should do to check the operation under working conditions.
shaggybaxter
shaggybaxter
QLD
2680 posts
QLD, 2680 posts
30 Sep 2015 9:42pm
Yara said...
If I was local I would use my reed tachometer to try to establish the frequency of the vibration. This could help find the cause. Does it vibrate the same amount through the rev range? Can you get access to the drive components to put your hand on them or touch with a screwdriver to the ear to get some clues?


I am a fan of the screwdriver trick , works like a stethoscope .
Engine mounts is my guess. Or flywheel balanced?
southace
southace
SA
4803 posts
SA, 4803 posts
30 Sep 2015 9:20pm
Engine mount coupling alignment ... after replacing all what you have its up to engine alignment .....try running the engine in gear and watch the coupling and bearing?
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
1 Oct 2015 2:58am
southace said..
Engine mount coupling alignment ... after replacing all what you have its up to engine alignment .....try running the engine in gear and watch the coupling and bearing?


+1 The more I think about it the more the engine mounts seem to be he culprit. I am guessing your professionals focussed from the gearbox aft, and did not do any work on the engine mounts?
Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7756 posts
NSW, 7756 posts
1 Oct 2015 8:08am
Do you have a shaft anode and is it still firmly attached?
Lexmark
Lexmark
VIC
218 posts
VIC, 218 posts
1 Oct 2015 9:25am
Thanks for your interest Guys
I now have the problem that each (Which there are 3 ) party saying that its not there fault, so am left in a bit of a bind, but all their insurance claims are held untill its fixed, but as insurance are paying for berthing fees and its going to blow a gale for the next few days, the situtation could be worse.
Ben405
Ben405
NSW
41 posts
NSW, 41 posts
1 Oct 2015 4:45pm
Hi Lexmark, I know exactly how you must be feeling, i have done all that you have, Had the shaft balanced, the Prop balanced , New bearings, etc etc all of which costs $$ I have just recently replaced the four Engine mounts, and have at least moved the vibration, what i mean is used to vibrate badly at and around 2000 revs which is were the motor seems to like working at, it now vibrated at 1200 revs and i have been out a couple of times after adjusting the screw engine mounts and each time it is slowly getting better and better, but the encouraging thing it that i now know im heading in the right direction. So persevere, im sure you will find and fix the vibration, Ben
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
1 Oct 2015 11:32pm

+1 to Ben405.

Track it down and chase it away.
Trek
Trek
NSW
1215 posts
NSW, 1215 posts
2 Oct 2015 10:48am
I installed two Volvo 2003 engines in my Martzcraft 35, both times there was excess vibration.

After first engine installation I didnt know the cause. Because I was on limited budget I decided to try and fix myself. I undid the shaft to engine coupling and sticky taped a stick from the side of the boat and positioned its end about 2mm from the coupling.

The purpose of this was so I could easily see if the coupling moved up and down as it rotated by sighting the distance moved from the coupling to the end of the stick. Purely a visual reference.

The gear box side didn't move as that side of the coupling was turned by hand. Turning it 360 degrees and its circumference was always 2mm from the end of the stick. The prop shaft one did move. 1mm distance on one side and 2mm on the other. Bing! it was a bent propellor shaft. A contractor looked at straightening it but for the sake of $600 I bought a new one.

After it was installed the prop shaft rotated perfectly. After bolting it to the engine (gearbox) it was fine.

That "reconditioned" engine was a dud, painted green by a shark who told me it was reconditioned. When I took it back to where I bought it the service guy didn't know I had bought it from them and told me the engine was cactus!! That's a different story. I met someone who sued them for a $20K engine, same story, but mine was only $3K and they denied everything so I blew $3K.

Second engine: Installed it, connected it to the perfect prop shaft and there was a very annoying vibration. Got my stick out and did the same thing as with engine #1 before. I could see the shaft-engine coupling rising and falling 2 mm or so. After a very long time spent adjusting the engine mounts up and down I got it to rotate with no movement. Bing! Vibration gone.

If I ever did it again I think a strobe would be the way to go. But the stick was cheaper and didnt need batteries.
Datawiz
Datawiz
VIC
605 posts
VIC, 605 posts
2 Oct 2015 2:16pm
Excellent troubleshooting Treck - the stick technique was very resourceful.
Shame about the 'reconditioned' engine - worth a complaint consumer affairs?
regards,
Allan
Yara
Yara
NSW
1322 posts
NSW, 1322 posts
2 Oct 2015 7:05pm
Lex, you did not say if the motor mounts had been replaced in your upgrade, or even adjusted?
SandS
SandS
VIC
5904 posts
VIC, 5904 posts
2 Oct 2015 7:35pm

The Marine repair industry is a real worry . There are so many horror stories out there , its a minefield for new players .

I personally have had two really bad experiences paying so called experts to perform maintenance work on my yacht .

It gets to the point where you cant trust them to do the job . And you are better off learning how to do it yourself .

This really craps me off, as i would in most cases prefer to pay some pro to do the job, as i am not in that trade .

Most people wouldn't do the brakes on their car , so why should we have to realign our engine after a "pro" has replaced the prop and shaft ?????



Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7756 posts
NSW, 7756 posts
3 Oct 2015 7:58am
The problem usually comes down to a hammer. I have watched "experts" remove props and flanges by tapping with a hammer. 3 inch shafts are easily bent like this. Toy sized shafts in yachts more so. Interestingly straightening shafts is not that hard or expensive and is done with a clever bloke and a hammer!
SandS
SandS
VIC
5904 posts
VIC, 5904 posts
3 Oct 2015 8:22am

exactly , but shouldn't these pro experts have a you buet prop puller ?

the industry is full of this sheelbe right ,roughenough is good enough attitude . or is it they just don't know the correct way ,or tool to use ?



HG02
HG02
VIC
5814 posts
VIC, 5814 posts
3 Oct 2015 8:31am
SandS said..

exactly , but shouldn't these pro experts have a you buet prop puller ?

the industry is full of this sheelbe right ,roughenough is good enough attitude . or is it they just don't know the correct way ,or tool to use ?





I used to work with a guy in a mine ,I called "Tapper" if it would not work he would hit it
Lexmark
Lexmark
VIC
218 posts
VIC, 218 posts
3 Oct 2015 9:24am
Hi to All

I think that the problem has been solved, well not sure as yet, but now the area has been moved to the "Thing" between the gear box and the motor, it has springs, so they are saying that they are either broken !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok so now just to get a new one.....OK its late friday...Sat...Sun...Public holiday !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Am starting to think that I may need to register here to vote.....been here that long.........But still a nice place
HG02
HG02
VIC
5814 posts
VIC, 5814 posts
3 Oct 2015 9:28am
Lexmark said..
Hi to All

I think that the problem has been solved, well not sure as yet, but now the area has been moved to the "Thing" between the gear box and the motor, it has springs, so they are saying that they are either broken !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok so now just to get a new one.....OK its late friday...Sat...Sun...Public holiday !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Am starting to think that I may need to register here to vote.....been here that long.........But still a nice place


the rates are due as well Lexmark plus power and water
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
3 Oct 2015 1:21pm
Ramona said..
The problem usually comes down to a hammer. I have watched "experts" remove props and flanges by tapping with a hammer. 3 inch shafts are easily bent like this. Toy sized shafts in yachts more so. Interestingly straightening shafts is not that hard or expensive and is done with a clever bloke and a hammer!


What???............A hammer to phuck it and a hammer to phix it. The unclever one first and the clever one after.

But yes, you are right. Given the cost of prop shafts, if yours is bent it is worth getting someone clever on the job with the right kind of hammer. A dead blow hammer would have to be the go.
MorningBird
MorningBird
NSW
2711 posts
NSW, 2711 posts
3 Oct 2015 2:00pm
cisco said..

Ramona said..
The problem usually comes down to a hammer. I have watched "experts" remove props and flanges by tapping with a hammer. 3 inch shafts are easily bent like this. Toy sized shafts in yachts more so. Interestingly straightening shafts is not that hard or expensive and is done with a clever bloke and a hammer!



What???............A hammer to phuck it and a hammer to phix it. The unclever one first and the clever one after.

But yes, you are right. Given the cost of prop shafts, if yours is bent it is worth getting someone clever on the job with the right kind of hammer. A dead blow hammer would have to be the go.


My prop shaft is quite long, about 2.5 metres, and 1" dia. I got a new one for $500 from Porters, with the SAE taper for the prop and key way for the flange.

Arguable whether it is cheaper than paying someone $95 an hour to straighten one.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
4 Oct 2015 1:18am
MorningBird said..

My prop shaft is quite long, about 2.5 metres, and 1" dia. I got a new one for $500 from Porters, with the SAE taper for the prop and key way for the flange.

Arguable whether it is cheaper than paying someone $95 an hour to straighten one.


That is a damn good price. Off the shelf S/S bar stock is not guaranteed dead straight but at the diameter, length and RPM for a yacht it is usually OK.

If you get into monel machined shaft material, expect to pay a bit more than that.

Though Morning Bird has a 2.5 m long shaft, I believe it is supported at the stern tube and then is unsupported between the stern tube and the gearbox coupling, the same as I had on "Cicely June".

I believe this photo is of Morning Bird.



It is quite an ideal set up for a yacht. A 25 mm misalignment of the engine divided by the length of the shaft should only result in a 1 mm misalignment at the stern bearing. The placement of the propellor near the top of the trailing edge of the fin keel was a stroke of genius by Olin Stephens.

The angle of attack of the prop to the water is as near to horizontal as possible and the prop thrust is virtually unaffected by the rudder.

Are you sure you ever want to sell Morning Bird. It is the same as your Triumph. A part of your soul.

You shame me into doing the Lord Howe trip, I shame you into keeping this yacht.
Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7756 posts
NSW, 7756 posts
4 Oct 2015 8:48am
I was at Porters one day and watched an old bloke straighten a shaft with a hammer, took nearly 20 seconds [not mine]. Shafts are fairly delicate. I had the shaft out of my fishing boat a couple of times. It was about 16 feet long and needed about 4 people to carry it. I made a hardwood frame to carry it on the truck tray to and fro from Porters at their suggestion.
MorningBird
MorningBird
NSW
2711 posts
NSW, 2711 posts
4 Oct 2015 12:43pm
cisco said...
MorningBird said..

My prop shaft is quite long, about 2.5 metres, and 1" dia. I got a new one for $500 from Porters, with the SAE taper for the prop and key way for the flange.

Arguable whether it is cheaper than paying someone $95 an hour to straighten one.


That is a damn good price. Off the shelf S/S bar stock is not guaranteed dead straight but at the diameter, length and RPM for a yacht it is usually OK.

If you get into monel machined shaft material, expect to pay a bit more than that.

Though Morning Bird has a 2.5 m long shaft, I believe it is supported at the stern tube and then is unsupported between the stern tube and the gearbox coupling, the same as I had on "Cicely June".

I believe this photo is of Morning Bird.



It is quite an ideal set up for a yacht. A 25 mm misalignment of the engine divided by the length of the shaft should only result in a 1 mm misalignment at the stern bearing. The placement of the propellor near the top of the trailing edge of the fin keel was a stroke of genius by Olin Stephens.

The angle of attack of the prop to the water is as near to horizontal as possible and the prop thrust is virtually unaffected by the rudder.

Are you sure you ever want to sell Morning Bird. It is the same as your Triumph. A part of your soul.

You shame me into doing the Lord Howe trip, I shame you into keeping this yacht.


The shaft was only supported at the stern bearing but any misalignment fed through the long shaft into vibration and whipping. It now has a second bearing where it comes through into the bilge and a flex coupling at the flange. It has been like this for 18 months and so far so good.
After this years Lord Howe MB could well be put up for sale. I have other interests and am not sure owning a boat is compatible with pursuing them. But until then Lord Howe is the focus.
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