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What's the optimal wind range for your boat?

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Created by shaggybaxter 2 months ago, 12 Sep 2017
shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
12 Sep 2017 9:22PM
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It always interests me how the different boats all have their different wind ranges and angles, and how different they can be. For mine, I'm terrible in the sub 5 knot range, I might as well be towing a drogue she's that gluey. Fusion seems to prefer 25-30 knots at 110-130 twa where she settles down and becomes finger light, as long as the sea state isn't too short and sharp.
I remember being out one day in pretty high winds (25+) when nearly all the boats were running little or no sails, and there's Boty with a full wardrobe, not a reef in sight, just trucking along as happy as a lamb.

We're going to stretch her legs after work tomorrow if anyone's keen for a twilight sail? Should be fun!
PM me if you're keen, we're not exactly weight conscious in these forecasts

So what's the sweet spot for your boat?

Jode5
QLD, 496 posts
12 Sep 2017 10:53PM
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We go well at any angle, but need at least 13kn of wind to power up. At 18 to 20kn the boat trucks. Looking to Reef at 20 kn if going to windward.

cisco
QLD, 10151 posts
13 Sep 2017 12:19AM
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Jeez shags!! When I read your thread heading I thought, that question is a bit too tech for most of us here considering the instruments and data you have on Fusion.

In the body of your post though, from what you say, it seems you are gaining more from observation than instruments and that is a damn good thing.

May I say that a sailor needs to have a "soul connection" with his yacht. We all do that.

Second Wind is coming up to being dry for 12 months. With what I have been doing to her and the very limited sailing I have done on her, I have a strong idea of how she is going to rollick.

In 30+ I believe she will point well with the blade No 4 and do 4 to 6 knots depending on swell and chop with little or no main.

In 20 to 30 I think two reefs in the main and No 3, she will power to windward. I think we all agree that power to windward is essential for safe sailing ability.

Off the wind is a whole new kettle of fish. I know that if I crank her up with the "booster sail", I am going to get 9 or more knots. That is the plan anyway.

If the house was sold and wife would agree, this would be me. I never get sick of watching this.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
13 Sep 2017 5:21AM
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Jode5 said..
We go well at any angle, but need at least 13kn of wind to power up. At 18 to 20kn the boat trucks. Looking to Reef at 20 kn if going to windward.


I hope I've got a camera one day and come across you mate in decent winds, it would be an awesome shot seeing Jode fully powered up!
This is my point , when Jode5 is getting moving, other boat types will be reefing down at 13knots. Conversely, in 3-5 knots you have other boat types that are dialled in and just sliding effortlessly through the water (not me sadly)

An interesting observation is the effect of the wind range when you're under autopilot, I've been on boats where the pilot is working its guts out, and others where the helm is barely moving. I get that it is is a function of balance and trim as much as boat design, but when the weather is optimal for your boat, the boat is happy, the stars have aligned and you're sitting there grinning like a Cheshire Cat, you can FEEL the boat almost come alive under you're fingers.
It's this I crave , not how fast you are , thats why I love our sport, it's a feeling almost unique to sailing.

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
13 Sep 2017 5:42AM
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cisco said..
Jeez shags!! When I read your thread heading I thought, that question is a bit too tech for most of us here considering the instruments and data you have on Fusion.

In the body of your post though, from what you say, it seems you are gaining more from observation than instruments and that is a damn good thing.

May I say that a sailor needs to have a "soul connection" with his yacht. We all do that.

Second Wind is coming up to being dry for 12 months. With what I have been doing to her and the very limited sailing I have done on her, I have a strong idea of how she is going to rollick.

In 30+ I believe she will point well with the blade No 4 and do 4 to 6 knots depending on swell and chop with little or no main.

In 20 to 30 I think two reefs in the main and No 3, she will power to windward. I think we all agree that power to windward is essential for safe sailing ability.

Off the wind is a whole new kettle of fish. I know that if I crank her up with the "booster sail", I am going to get 9 or more knots. That is the plan anyway.

If the house was sold and wife would agree, this would be me. I never get sick of watching this.




Good point Cisco , I agree that go to windward manners is the more critical angle, working off a lee shore in foul weather is when I want my boat to be in its groove.
It's taken me a solid year to be able to sail the boat by feel, it never ceases to amaze me an inch of traveller or easing the headsail another inch can transform the boat handling. The difficulty for me is working out how to adjust trim to suit the hull/keel design, every boat has its own characteristics.

A good friend has an 80's IOR design, it's utterly gorgeous sailing it going to windward in light airs. Going DDW in heavy airs is an absolute nightmare by comparison, rolling through 50 degrees frantically trying to keep the boat under the kite!
Thats not a bad helmsman, the boat is simply not in its optimal wind range or angles. I've often wanted to try a blooper on that boat , there must have been a reason we were mad enough to try and run bloopers in the IOR days!
Can't wait to see what Second Wind is like, that's a fascinating hull /keel design and I'll be really interested to see what her sweet spot is !

ps: thanks for the vid, not too shabby for a little 30' cruiser!

tomooh
103 posts
13 Sep 2017 4:47AM
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to windward 10 kts is nice where you can get the apparent wind up a bit and nothing is under strain, downwind 25 to 30 plus with no main just a headsail pulling and waves pushing you along, often go sailing and let the boat go where it feels happiest and fastest which is apparent wind about 50 to 60 degrees.

BlueMoon
447 posts
13 Sep 2017 5:22AM
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Shaggy, on the 80's IOR design that is a nightmare downwind, im curious if the rudder is further forward, compared to the more modern designs? (And raked down forward at an angle, as opposed to being vertical), And if that would increase roll DDW?

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
13 Sep 2017 7:46AM
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G'day BM,
Yes to the idea, but the keel not the rudder I think. The rudder's pretty normal mate, probably slightly bigger than normal but vertical and under the stern.
The keel though is illeptical, shaped like a Spitfire wing as compared to a more modern vertical fin, and due to that classic IOR hull shape ( which I think is kinda sexy) there's little wetted surface area when she's flat, and not enough buoyancy to resist rolling till you're pretty much on your ear.
I'm no naval architect, but I think that has more of an influence for the roly poly mannerisms if that makes any sense.

FreeRadical
WA, 658 posts
13 Sep 2017 9:04AM
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Delphia 40. Not a great performer under 10kts, bit too heavy, and crap sails that have lost shape. Does ok 10-20kts, best around 15-20kts. No good above 20kts, just heels more with out of shape sails. Looking at new sails which should be a big improvement.

Only have an off the shelf Assy for downwind, not the best for a heavier/slower boat as cannot get the speed to make up for shallower angles and more miles.

boty
QLD, 256 posts
13 Sep 2017 11:18AM
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as shaggy said pagan loves a blow with full main and no 3 to 35 and carrying kites to 40 but the surprising thing is she very quick in the bottom end of the range sub 8 knots as long as the sea state remains flat and we can remain in clear air as with the low aspect rig she is very susceptible to turbulent air. We have recently counteracted this with sailing with a lot of twist in the no 1 which though looks wrong seems to be working very well
needless to say to get the good light air performance in a heavy boat with long keel (8 ton irc probably a sailing weight of just over 9 ) we have a very smooth and clean bottom

Toph
WA, 1140 posts
13 Sep 2017 9:24AM
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FreeRadical said..
Delphia 40. Not a great performer under 10kts, bit too heavy, and crap sails that have lost shape. Does ok 10-20kts, best around 15-20kts. No good above 20kts, just heels more with out of shape sails. Looking at new sails which should be a big improvement.

Only have an off the shelf Assy for downwind, not the best for a heavier/slower boat as cannot get the speed to make up for shallower angles and more miles.


I'm looking forward to being able to buddy up on a decent sail and compare our two boats.
I'm still very much getting use to mine, but it seems to be a dog at 10kts and under. 10 - <15 when you get her going she goes well. 15-20 seems the sweet spot. I am reefing at 20 but I suspespect I'm being a little conservative.

boty
QLD, 256 posts
13 Sep 2017 11:30AM
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BlueMoon said..
Shaggy, on the 80's IOR design that is a nightmare downwind, im curious if the rudder is further forward, compared to the more modern designs? (And raked down forward at an angle, as opposed to being vertical), And if that would increase roll DDW?


the problem with lack of tracking ability in ior designs isn't so much rudder size or placement but the heavily tucked sterns this gives great performance at low speed ie to windward and light airs but causes stalled flow at speed
later designs such as shaggys have nice flat runs aft so pop and plane needing minimal helm to hold the balance this is improved even more by moving rudders outboard so when heeled they are vertical and not depressing the bow
earlier designs of the rorc area though heavy displacement don't suffer from the tracking problems of the later boats as they tended to be narrower with flatter runs aft and longer keels

sydchris
NSW, 84 posts
13 Sep 2017 2:03PM
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The boat goes best when the crew want to get off...

sirgallivant
NSW, 985 posts
13 Sep 2017 5:22PM
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Being an Adams, a 28, it was expected to sail well.Masthead rig, brand new, fin keel, transom hung rudder with skeg, tiller, tiller pilot S 2000.

Well, time and again, it proved itself to be a very easily sailing cruising yacht with no particular vices.
I don't have wind instruments bar a vane so wind speed is only an estimate but last Thursday and Friday in the blow (20-25kn gusting 30-35) l was going up and down Port Jackson with one or later two reefs in the main and a cutter sail, genoa furled, mostly with autopilot engaged doing 4.5 - 7 knots all day.
With this rig there is no danger of doing anything untoward while the possibility is there to power down with third reef or trysail and storm sail if needed.
Monday sailed to Pittwater in 12-17kn E-NE, 24.5nm in 5h28min on full genoa and main, best speed 6.2kn. There was a moderate 7-9 ft SSE swell running.
Back on Tuesday 13-18kn W-NW, 21.3nm on full genoa poled out and full main with preventer in 4h0m, best speed 7.2kn. There was a 3-5 feet SSE swell.
Could have used my asymmetric on the way back but l was content with what l had.
Mostly autopiloted on all occasions with two on board with some manual steering thrown in for good measure.
On the stormy days the traveller had a fair workout while the up and down sailing was mainly set and forget.
The bottom is slimy, l should have cleaned it but...

MorningBird
NSW, 1767 posts
13 Sep 2017 6:01PM
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S&S34. It depends on whether you are offshore or in sheltered waters. My comments are for offshore as that is where I do most sailing.
Anywhere between 8 and 40 kts apparent.
To windward she sails at lower wind speeds of say 5kts apparent. First reef at 20 with a bit of headsail furled. 2nd reef at 25-30 with a bit more headsail in. We have sailed her well to windward at up to 45kts apparent but why bother, it is rough and wet. Bear away or heave to.
Beam reach, go like the clappers with balanced helm with 10-40kts apparent. Reefs about the same as to windward but traveller down and use the sheets for balance. The mainsheet might be well eased as she sails on the heady.
Downwind anything up to 50kts true (about 43 apparent). Being an IOR design there is roll/yaw on S&S34s but it is only pronounced with a spinnaker which I don't run. With balanced heady and main she is fine, and when using the Fleming sail balance is critical. Of course, if offshore, the seas in these winds cause roll/yaw in any boat.
The Fleming likes anything above 10kts apparent so not good downwind in light airs. I use the Simrad when the Fleming isn't suitable, or hand steer.

Planeray
47 posts
14 Sep 2017 8:20AM
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One Design Soling. Speed depends on how clean the bum is :P

I struggle a little in the lower winds, even though it's quite a light boat. I think that's more due to poor skippering than anything else though.

Downwind, if I've got a halfway decent crew onboard and we manage to pop the spinnaker without trouble, she flys in the 15-20 range. Easily surfs down waves, hitting over 7kts.

Upwind, again, depends on crew, but more in terms of how heavy they are! If I can get at least on other heavy bloke on board, 25kts with full sails is wild and fun. Again, easily hit hull speed.

Beyond that, I really have to reef. Once, in the early days, went out in about 28-30 kts with just one other crew member who's pretty light. Full sails up because I didn't have one that reefed. Managed to broach with just the jib and main heading deep downwind, did a full 360! Brown shorts that day for sure. GPS track told us we hit well over 8kts when we went onto a reach.

I've become somewhat more cautious since then!

EC31
NSW, 246 posts
14 Sep 2017 7:02PM
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EastCoast 31. All sails are deck sweepers, not furlers.
Full main & 150% genoa to 15
Full main & 135% genoa to 25 gusting 30
Full main & 120% genoa to 35, 1st reef after that. Haven't put in a second reef yet.

We are very good dead downwind on a poled headsail. Much more stable than a spinnaker and only slightly slower SOG. But then, the 150% is probably more than half a symmetrical. Top speed at Hammo was over 9 knots with the 120% and no reef. Not bad for IOR.

Looks like a big blow coming this weekend for the trip down the NSW coast. Suspect we will be down to a second reef early and a cruising sail on the furler.

Chris 249
ACT, 1235 posts
14 Sep 2017 7:03PM
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I've tried to get mine to be all-rounders. It's too frustrating to have those days when you know the boat won't perform.

Today I briefly tried the new headsail on the J/36. It's second hand as the idea is to test whether we can go from the designed 150% overlap headsail down to 107% and still perform. In our limited racing to date she has been performing over expectations and at her best in drifters, so I'm happy to give up some pace in that stuff to lower the rating and make her easier and more fun to handle. Instead of symmetrical kites or the little MPS we've now got a slightly oversized assy which will be run from the bow or a conventional pole. Hopefully its handling will help us get over the weak spot downwind in a breeze compared to the newer boats.

A guy who has won a couple of nationals in offshore boats once told me that the ideal is to have a boat that performs well all-round but has one killer point of sail. It sounds like a good way to do it. Our killer point of sail should be downwind in the light due to our narrower stern, perhaps upwind in light airs due to the high aspect rig and low wetted surface, and we could surprise downwind in a big breeze compared to other cruiser/racers (ie J/35s, Beneteau 36.7s, etc). The problem may be upwind in a breeze when the more modern keels of Sydney 36s etc will be hard to compete with.

w8ingforwind
183 posts
14 Sep 2017 5:39PM
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On the trailer with someone else's vehicle towing.

SandS
VIC, 4959 posts
14 Sep 2017 8:27PM
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EC31 said..
EastCoast 31. All sails are deck sweepers, not furlers.
Full main & 150% genoa to 15
Full main & 135% genoa to 25 gusting 30
Full main & 120% genoa to 35, 1st reef after that. Haven't put in a second reef yet.

We are very good dead downwind on a poled headsail. Much more stable than a spinnaker and only slightly slower SOG. But then, the 150% is probably more than half a symmetrical. Top speed at Hammo was over 9 knots with the 120% and no reef. Not bad for IOR.

Looks like a big blow coming this weekend for the trip down the NSW coast. Suspect we will be down to a second reef early and a cruising sail on the furler.


wow !! incredible !!

andy59
QLD, 949 posts
14 Sep 2017 9:40PM
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MorningBird said..
S&S34. It depends on whether you are offshore or in sheltered waters. My comments are for offshore as that is where I do most sailing.
Anywhere between 8 and 40 kts apparent.
To windward she sails at lower wind speeds of say 5kts apparent. First reef at 20 with a bit of headsail furled. 2nd reef at 25-30 with a bit more headsail in. We have sailed her well to windward at up to 45kts apparent but why bother, it is rough and wet. Bear away or heave to.
Beam reach, go like the clappers with balanced helm with 10-40kts apparent. Reefs about the same as to windward but traveller down and use the sheets for balance. The mainsheet might be well eased as she sails on the heady.
Downwind anything up to 50kts true (about 43 apparent). Being an IOR design there is roll/yaw on S&S34s but it is only pronounced with a spinnaker which I don't run. With balanced heady and main she is fine, and when using the Fleming sail balance is critical. Of course, if offshore, the seas in these winds cause roll/yaw in any boat.
The Fleming likes anything above 10kts apparent so not good downwind in light airs. I use the Simrad when the Fleming isn't suitable, or hand steer.


Well said MB. The only thing I would add is: the further I sailed the earlier I reefed, I used a number 3ish heady (100%) most of the time, under 10knots I would sail as a cutter with the storm jib unfurled. I tried to keep the boat between 5.5kn and 6.5kn so I would go to the 1st reef at 13-15kn depending if I thought the wind was increasing or not. 2nd reef would be at around 18-20kn and 3rd at around 25-30kn with a bit of heady rolled. Over 30kn storm jib and 3 reefs then half furl the storm jib as the wind increases. When it gets really windy the S and S is pretty comfortable under a triple reefed main, but I couldn't make any ground to windward without a bit of storm jib out.
Funnily enough my favourite conditions were 18-20kn, 165-170 poled out no. 3 jib and 2 reefs despite the roly poly nature of the IOR design downwind.

andy59
QLD, 949 posts
14 Sep 2017 9:52PM
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cisco said..
Jeez shags!! When I read your thread heading I thought, that question is a bit too tech for most of us here considering the instruments and data you have on Fusion.

In the body of your post though, from what you say, it seems you are gaining more from observation than instruments and that is a damn good thing.

May I say that a sailor needs to have a "soul connection" with his yacht. We all do that.

Second Wind is coming up to being dry for 12 months. With what I have been doing to her and the very limited sailing I have done on her, I have a strong idea of how she is going to rollick.

In 30+ I believe she will point well with the blade No 4 and do 4 to 6 knots depending on swell and chop with little or no main.

In 20 to 30 I think two reefs in the main and No 3, she will power to windward. I think we all agree that power to windward is essential for safe sailing ability.

Off the wind is a whole new kettle of fish. I know that if I crank her up with the "booster sail", I am going to get 9 or more knots. That is the plan anyway.

If the house was sold and wife would agree, this would be me. I never get sick of watching this.




Is that a pogo 30 or a Mini Cisco?

cisco
QLD, 10151 posts
14 Sep 2017 11:07PM
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Chris 249 said..
A guy who has won a couple of nationals in offshore boats once told me that the ideal is to have a boat that performs well all-round but has one killer point of sail.


That idea appeals to me greatly but it could take a long time to find that "killer point of sail".

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
14 Sep 2017 11:17PM
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andy59 said..







cisco said..
Jeez shags!! When I read your thread heading I thought, that question is a bit too tech for most of us here considering the instruments and data you have on Fusion.

In the body of your post though, from what you say, it seems you are gaining more from observation than instruments and that is a damn good thing.

May I say that a sailor needs to have a "soul connection" with his yacht. We all do that.

Second Wind is coming up to being dry for 12 months. With what I have been doing to her and the very limited sailing I have done on her, I have a strong idea of how she is going to rollick.

In 30+ I believe she will point well with the blade No 4 and do 4 to 6 knots depending on swell and chop with little or no main.

In 20 to 30 I think two reefs in the main and No 3, she will power to windward. I think we all agree that power to windward is essential for safe sailing ability.

Off the wind is a whole new kettle of fish. I know that if I crank her up with the "booster sail", I am going to get 9 or more knots. That is the plan anyway.

If the house was sold and wife would agree, this would be me. I never get sick of watching this.











Is that a pogo 30 or a Mini Cisco?








Pogo 30 Andy,
Its only a couple of knots off the 40'in outright speed, bit tippier till it sat on the chine, but 6' headroom only in the main cabin. Brilliant little boat for single handing, I had a day in Brittany on it.
Last time I checked, there was an 18 month wait list.
The new 36 is a cross between the 30 and the 12.50, not as beamy and wicked upwind, but 18 month wait list on that one too. The 12.50 was out to 24 months.


Edit: Correction sorry, you're right, its a mini. Just noticed the single tiller, the 30 is a dual tiller. That;s the only complaint I found on the 30, if you're lazy the mainsheet catches the tiller extensions.

cisco
QLD, 10151 posts
14 Sep 2017 11:20PM
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andy59 said..
When it gets really windy the S and S is pretty comfortable under a triple reefed main, but I couldn't make any ground to windward without a bit of storm jib out.


The Peterson 42 IOR 2 tonner I had was the same.

I was motor sailing at night trying to make port in rough seas and not making good progress. Rolled out 2 to 3 meters of old stretched head sail on Reefurl, which looked like a Woolies plastic bag and I got power back into her.

Not sure if it is an IOR thing or a sloop thing. I suspect it is a sloop thing.

cisco
QLD, 10151 posts
14 Sep 2017 11:39PM
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shaggybaxter said..
Pogo 30 Andy,
Its only a couple of knots off the 40'in outright speed, bit tippier and 6' headroom only in the main cabin. Brilliant little boat for single handing, I had a day in Brittany on it.
Last time I checked, there was an 18 month wait list.
The new 36 is a cross between the 30 and the 12.50, not as beamy and wicked upwind, but 18 month wait list on that one too. The 12.50 was out to 24 months.


They are damned expensive yachts but for boats that go like that the high demand and wait list is not surprising. Pogos are a no nonsense yacht.

Andy, if shaggy is amenable, which I am sure he is, you should go for a sail with him on Fusion.

WARNING!! The experience will mess your mind up.

Ramona
NSW, 3827 posts
15 Sep 2017 9:06AM
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Currawong 30. Mainsail with 3 reefs and a 130% radial cut laminated headsail. Heaps of other sails but most of my sailing is with the working sails and occasionally the cruising chute. All solo. Love sailing with 10-15 knots over the deck but boat moves nicely with 5 knots over the deck and the windvane steers better than me once we get one or two knots of hull speed. Reef when I have about 18 knots over the deck and 25 knots for the second. Third reef once it's over 30 and a few turns on the headsail. Boat handles the conditions easily and the steering is always light but it's unpleasant for me by then and it's easier to return to the mooring and sail another day. One of the advantages for pensioners is I can sail any day! Boat steers down wind well in most breezes, the only difficult time is dead down wind in light conditions where she will steer with the windvane down to about 3 knots of breeze over the stern but get caught out when there are a few waves!



andy59
QLD, 949 posts
20 Sep 2017 9:36AM
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cisco said..

shaggybaxter said..
Pogo 30 Andy,
Its only a couple of knots off the 40'in outright speed, bit tippier and 6' headroom only in the main cabin. Brilliant little boat for single handing, I had a day in Brittany on it.
Last time I checked, there was an 18 month wait list.
The new 36 is a cross between the 30 and the 12.50, not as beamy and wicked upwind, but 18 month wait list on that one too. The 12.50 was out to 24 months.



They are damned expensive yachts but for boats that go like that the high demand and wait list is not surprising. Pogos are a no nonsense yacht.

Andy, if shaggy is amenable, which I am sure he is, you should go for a sail with him on Fusion.

WARNING!! The experience will mess your mind up.


Yeah, the Pogo 12.50 is on my wish list for one day. What an awesome boat!!!

andy59
QLD, 949 posts
20 Sep 2017 9:43AM
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Ramona said..
Currawong 30. Mainsail with 3 reefs and a 130% radial cut laminated headsail. Heaps of other sails but most of my sailing is with the working sails and occasionally the cruising chute. All solo. Love sailing with 10-15 knots over the deck but boat moves nicely with 5 knots over the deck and the windvane steers better than me once we get one or two knots of hull speed. Reef when I have about 18 knots over the deck and 25 knots for the second. Third reef once it's over 30 and a few turns on the headsail. Boat handles the conditions easily and the steering is always light but it's unpleasant for me by then and it's easier to return to the mooring and sail another day. One of the advantages for pensioners is I can sail any day! Boat steers down wind well in most breezes, the only difficult time is dead down wind in light conditions where she will steer with the windvane down to about 3 knots of breeze over the stern but get caught out when there are a few waves!




Nice shot Ramona

shaggybaxter
QLD, 819 posts
20 Sep 2017 11:35AM
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That is a great shot Ramona, sucks you in.

simmrr
WA, 53 posts
20 Sep 2017 9:55PM
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Solo on the hobie is good from 10 - 20knts. Over that it is a handful. Doable but just and the boat takes a lot of strain and myself. Only once when I got caught out and swore never again. Took ages to get back to shore tacking against the wind and current.

Havent been anywhere near that though since my young son and his friend put a nice hole in the hull with some bricks they were playing with.

Can only look at it and sigh as I'm too busy too fix it with study as well as forced sidelining with injury.



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"What's the optimal wind range for your boat?" started by shaggybaxter