Which timber sealer for under the waterline ?

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zilla
zilla
145 posts
145 posts
17 Aug 2016 12:35pm
My jarrah planked yacht is in need of re painting so I will remove all coatings on the hull back to raw timber. I'll then seal the timber with several coats of two pack epoxy sealant before undercoating and anti fouling. Years ago I used International Paints "Everdure" but I don't want to use them again. This time I'll use either the Wattyl "Seapro" product or the Norglass "Norseal" product.

I notice the retail price of the Norglass is about 50% higher than the Wattyl product and I really cannot determine any difference in the chemicals used by referring to the MSDS of each product - but I'm not a chemical engineer either.

Does anyone have any experience with the Wattyl or Norglass epoxy timber sealers and can you recommend one over the other?
Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7757 posts
NSW, 7757 posts
17 Aug 2016 5:32pm
Norglass is Wattle.

Is this a carvel planked jarrah yacht? If it's carvel then stick to single pack paints so that the paint does not crack as the planks move. Any of the aluminium oxide type grey primers will do. There is also no point to stripping off all the paint. Sand smooth, touch up bare spots and paint.
boty
boty
QLD
685 posts
QLD, 685 posts
18 Aug 2016 7:39am
we are presently restoring a 50 foot bass straight cray boat built by Kazzer in jarrah and use wattyl tp80 thin first coat 40 % with wattly L760 epoxy thinners quite important to thin as jarrah is fairly hard 2 more coats light sand with 180 #before epoxy tie coat of your choice have been using tp80 for 20 years good product very cheap pity it only comes in 2 liter packs now
Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7757 posts
NSW, 7757 posts
18 Aug 2016 8:20am
Not sure how the jarrah planking is going to absorb enough water to keep the planks expanded and the sea out!
Guitz
Guitz
VIC
617 posts
VIC, 617 posts
18 Aug 2016 8:54am
Ramona said..
Not sure how the jarrah planking is going to absorb enough water to keep the planks expanded and the sea out!


Jarrah planking when new will take up with a gap the thickness of a 20 cent peice. When Stenross built his fishing boats is Port lincoln thats the gap he set between planks he plaaned so as not to need caulking. After the hull was finished, before fit out it was sunk on his slipway for a few weeks so it took up tight then they would pull the hull out, fit the engine and complete the fit out and away she would go.
I painted my boat above the water line using the Noreglass Norseal and then the epoxy filler undercoat, finishing of with the two pack Northane Gloss which is a polyurethane finish. I used to follow the advise of sticking to single pack paints as i had seen the cracking issue and the top coat lifting, allowing water underneath but have since found out those problems are due to not using the penetrating thin epoxy preserver on the bare timber. If you are going to go with the two pack it's important to sand back to bare timber and use the thin epoxy primer as Zilla intends to, however i can't recomend one product over the other.
zilla
zilla
145 posts
145 posts
18 Aug 2016 11:19am
Some background information for you guys.....

Yes, it's jarrah carvel planked. When I built this boat I did some tests to confirm exactly how jarrah behaved when absorbing moisture since I couldn't find anyone who knew how much a plank would expand under water. Unfortunately timber boat building knowledge is in very short supply and I suspect some of those who did know were not willing to share their knowledge.
I wanted to build a boat using both traditional and modern techniques. I did not like the idea of allowing "natural/raw" jarrah planks to expand and contract as they wish so I prepared my own test samples.

Test results: with no treatment raw jarrah expanded a little less than 6% of its width. After sealing with 2 coats of epoxy timber sealant (Everdure at that time) and then 3 coats of primer (no top coat) the expansion was about 0.7% of its width after 38 days immersed in salt water. All expansion occurred within the first 5 days.
So that's what I did for the whole boat - at least two coats of epoxy sealant on every piece of timber (including all ply) internally and externally followed by relevant primer and topcoats.

I butted all planks tight on the inboard edge and left a bevelled gap on the outboard edge of about 3mm ready for cotton caulking. Seams were payed with Sikaflex.
Although I strictly followed the advice of the Sikaflex wooden boat technical "expert" the most of the seam edges failed with the Sikaflex not adhering and I had to redo a few of the under-the-waterline seams. I removed the Sikaflex entirely on a few seams and used a product called Fixtech and it worked perfectly. I'll never use Sikaflex again.
After 5 years in the water I never saw any movement in the planks. That means to me that sealing planks against moisture, even when under water, can work.

For planks under the waterline I added two coats of grey (Intl Paints) primer then antifoul. Topsides were single pack Intl Paints white.

After 5 years in the marina the paint on almost all seam edges above the waterline started to crack and peel. After 2 years on the hardstand at home some of the antifoul and primer has peeled off exposing raw timber and the topside paint at the seams is continuing to peel.
So that's where I'm at and hence my question about which sealer is better .... Wattyl or Norglass ?
LooseChange
LooseChange
NSW
2140 posts
NSW, 2140 posts
18 Aug 2016 2:38pm
Wattyl or Norglass ?

Why not ring both companies and speak to their technical devision. From what you have already deduced by trial and error you seem to have a fairly good grasp on what seems to work. Therefore based on your knowledge you should be able to work out who is offering good advice and who is spinning their product. Play one against the other so to speak.
boty
boty
QLD
685 posts
QLD, 685 posts
18 Aug 2016 3:47pm
jarrah moves a lot we are timber boat builders and because of jarrahs movement about 8 to 10 % it is always hard to hold a good paint job here in Brisbane with jarrah ,so the boat we are restoring at present has been splined with QLD cedar to allow for the movement ,none of this will affect you to much as long as you only leave her in bare wood for a few days and only keep her out of the water for a couple of weeks
if she has been out of the water for an extended time she may have dried right out and this wood have caused complete failure of the coating brand wont matter no paint will like this a full recaulk or hardening up of seams at least will be required or a splining job . don't get to carried away with topside finish as it will move when she gos back in and tightens back up and will then require a sand back and repaint within 6 months even if you use epoxys
the reason we use wattyl on all our topside work weather enamel house paints or epoxy's and polyurethanes is service and price also there epoxy highbuild undercoat uc230 is amazingly cheap builds well and sands like butter all things a boatbuilder loves
zilla
zilla
145 posts
145 posts
18 Aug 2016 3:06pm
I'd like to use the same manufacturer for all coatings on the boat, just to keep it all simple.

Boty... from your experience in a humid environment like Brisbane I have two questions:

(1) for planks under the waterline: following the Seapro sealer, which Wattyl primer/undercoat and which Wattyl antifoul do you find works the best?
(2) for planks above the waterline: following the Seapro sealer, which Wattyl primer/undercoat and which Wattyl topcoat do you find works the best?

Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7757 posts
NSW, 7757 posts
18 Aug 2016 5:56pm
LooseChange said..
Wattyl or Norglass ?

Why not ring both companies and speak to their technical devision. From what you have already deduced by trial and error you seem to have a fairly good grasp on what seems to work. Therefore based on your knowledge you should be able to work out who is offering good advice and who is spinning their product. Play one against the other so to speak.


On the bottom of the Norglass tins label you will find Wattyl's address and details.

The best paint I have found for carvel workboats above the water line is White Knights oil based paving paint. 3 coats no primer. Below the water line Jotun grey primer.
zilla
zilla
145 posts
145 posts
18 Aug 2016 7:48pm
I agree Ramona. I do like to use the White Knight paving paint on external house walls, timber, etc since I also find it to be very good. I had not considered using it the boat however so thanks for the reminder.
The paint on the topsides planks begun to peel only starting from the seams. There has been no peeling elsewhere so that would indicate it is really a seam problem. The Sikaflex in the seams did not stick to the edges so that is probably the source of the peeling issues. Unfortunately I may have to remove the Sikaflex from all the seams (about 400m of them !) and redo them with the Fixtech product.

How about a really rubbery elastic primer/undercoat that will fill up the tiny cracks in the Sikaflexed seams and expand/contract with any timber movement? Does such a product exist?
That would make my life pretty easy and avoid removing the Sikaflex - just sand back to raw timber, soak in epoxy sealant, throw on the magic rubbery primer/undercoat and all problems solved.
Agent nods
Agent nods
622 posts
622 posts
18 Aug 2016 10:23pm

Norglass is an Australian owned company (there are still some) from their website:

Norglass was incorporated in May 1979 in Sydney, and current ownership acquired in May 1982. It is 100% family owned by Les Baker, Janice Baker and Brett Mould.

Wattyl is now owned by Valspar (US)

I worked both as supplier and user to the paint industry for many years, and the continual banning and restrictions of the additives are difficult without the back up that the big manufactures have. They do put a lot of training into their sales staff....so if you do buy from one of their outlets you may get good advice.{well better than Bunnings).






Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3586 posts
NSW, 3586 posts
19 Aug 2016 7:38am
Ramona said..

LooseChange said..
Wattyl or Norglass ?

Why not ring both companies and speak to their technical devision. From what you have already deduced by trial and error you seem to have a fairly good grasp on what seems to work. Therefore based on your knowledge you should be able to work out who is offering good advice and who is spinning their product. Play one against the other so to speak.



On the bottom of the Norglass tins label you will find Wattyl's address and details.

The best paint I have found for carvel workboats above the water line is White Knights oil based paving paint. 3 coats no primer. Below the water line Jotun grey primer.


What is the White Knight like for yachts? I'm not sure I want to spend all the time required to take the topsides paint back so I can put urethane on.
boty
boty
QLD
685 posts
QLD, 685 posts
19 Aug 2016 8:25am
zilla said..
I'd like to use the same manufacturer for all coatings on the boat, just to keep it all simple.

Boty... from your experience in a humid environment like Brisbane I have two questions:

(1) for planks under the waterline: following the Seapro sealer, which Wattyl primer/undercoat and which Wattyl antifoul do you find works the best?
(2) for planks above the waterline: following the Seapro sealer, which Wattyl primer/undercoat and which Wattyl topcoat do you find works the best?



below the waterline we favor hempel antifouls either olympic or globic which is there better range i find the wattyl antifoul doesn't perform to its price point i also like the International antifouls micron extra or 66 though dear performs well and we use the epoxy tie coat of that brand to match though all tie coats work with differing antifouls

above water line if using tp80 as a primer i would use wattyl uc230 epoxy high build and if singel pack wattyl easy flo gloss white with a bit of penetrol to help it flow NO THINNERS roll and tip or if 2 pack poly u 400 make sure undercoat is sanded to a 180# finish no finer as if you sand to fine you will achieve a poor mechanical bond
remember if you have shrinkage of planking already when she goes back in the water and it tightens back up all of your paint will move and will need another sandback and repaint
Ramona
Ramona
NSW
7757 posts
NSW, 7757 posts
19 Aug 2016 8:52am
Chris 249 said..

Ramona said..


LooseChange said..
Wattyl or Norglass ?

Why not ring both companies and speak to their technical devision. From what you have already deduced by trial and error you seem to have a fairly good grasp on what seems to work. Therefore based on your knowledge you should be able to work out who is offering good advice and who is spinning their product. Play one against the other so to speak.




On the bottom of the Norglass tins label you will find Wattyl's address and details.

The best paint I have found for carvel workboats above the water line is White Knights oil based paving paint. 3 coats no primer. Below the water line Jotun grey primer.



What is the White Knight like for yachts? I'm not sure I want to spend all the time required to take the topsides paint back so I can put urethane on.


The only problem is the gloss is not the same as the oil based marine topside paints. This might not be a problem and on cabin sides and decks it's an advantage. The paint is very hard, it's meant to be walked on. Many years ago we were poling tuna and bonito on a daily basis. The fish landed against the inside of the coaming and gunwales etc and wore off the paint. The fisherman who tied up behind me at the wharf was working a converted Tasmanian crayboat for a boat building company in Sydney. They used to send down paint for him to maintain their boat. It was paving paint. I tried samples on sections and found it worked perfectly. It was actually the only paint that would stay on hardwood gunwales etc that were constantly exposed to the sun. The usual marine paint systems just peeled off spotted gum but the White knights paving paint had no problems. The fact that no priming is required is a bonus. It dries fast and painting my fishing boat topsides was a matter of a wash down with "Metal Gleam" acids. When dry two coats of paving paint, roller, start at the bow and go around the boat twice.
One of these days I am going to have to paint the topsides of my Currawong. That will be a two pot polyurethane.


Another gloss paint I can recommend is ALDI's metal paint, $10 a litre. Great on trailers and I reckon it would be good on timber. Sprays well and has a high gloss.
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