The numbers mean nothing between brands and lines of foils. Just look for small medium and large between the foil line. Judge that way instead of based on numbers. You using one size larger is a decent starting point.

Yeah foil section matters and high aspect foils behave different than low and your other gear matters and your conditions matter and yadda yadda yadda. At the end of the day there is a very finite and not terribly wide range of lift coefficients you can get out of various foil sections. So area still matters and comparing areas is still relevant, just know that it is subject to an increasing amount of uncertainty as foil designers push harder into diverging corners of the foil design solution space. I really appreciate brands that publish foil volume in addition to area. That gives a good read of average thickness. Combined with some photos you can start to see thickness and area distribution and, to a lesser extent, camber. At that point you have a pretty decent idea if you are comparing apples to apples or not.

All that said, investing in a completely new system is so bloody expensive and preferences so individual that I've concluded demoing is the only way to make such a big investment in a well informed manner.

I recall a podcast with Axis designer Adrian Roper from a while back where he lists the most important design aspects of a foil. In order of importance he put wingspan first, then apsect ratios/ average chord, then foil section, then thickness. He puts surface area right down at the bottom of the list of importance.

I think this is pretty accurate. If you compare a low aspect design from a couple years ago to a mid aspect design today you will see you get a much bigger wing with the same surface area. For instance if I compare my old Axis Surf Performance 860
( wingspan) with my current Axis Spitfire 1030 ( wingspan) both have a projected area just under 1300cm ( SF has a little more area). The 1030 SF is in every way a much bigger ( and better) wing. Lift, glide, pumping are all much more on the SF. ( I didn't mention turning because the 1030 SF turns ridiculously well for a wing that size.


As a bigger rider ( 100kgs) I definitely feel like wingspan is key to getting the pump and glide that I want. Anything under 950mm starts to get a lot harder to pump and link waves. Higher aspect wings, especially in good conditions, I can carry enough speed and glide to make them work well even with lower surface area.

I definitely wish there was a better way to measure lift ratio for rider weight. A friend I foil with a lot is 70kg and whenever he sees what I'm riding he says " Oh that's a big foil". When factoring in my weight and the increase in board size I would need to take at least 30-40% off for us to be at a similar lift ratio.

noepoxy said..

Youngbreezy said..

I definitely wish there was a better way to measure lift ratio for rider weight. A friend I foil with a lot is 70kg and whenever he sees what I'm riding he says " Oh that's a big foil". When factoring in my weight and the increase in board size I would need to take at least 30-40% off for us to be at a similar lift ratio.

Your last paragraph is what I'm talking about, there are lighter guys at my spot pumping for days, so if you take rider skill out of it, what I'm looking for is a way to measure what is a comparable foil size in the same brand for my weight to see if the brand has one big enough. But, I know I won't have the same experience as the foil will be bigger, wider, thicker, bigger chord and slower, but it's a good place to start from.

The only way I know how to do this is the cm2 / rider weight to get a ratio.

I think it you add in wingspan and surface area you could get a more concise ratio for rider weight.
Another thing the smaller riders don't consider is that a heavier rider can get alot more performance out of the same wing. If you put a 70kg guy and a 100kg guy on the same wing the 70kg guy will get alot more lift and stay up a lot easier but the heavier rider will get alot more speed and better turning ( more leverage).

noepoxy said..Not many brands support foils with that lift profile or boards for that matter for my weight, guess I have to choose my brand wisely and find the best scale ratio etc

Thats why demo is important. At 100kg I cannot believe the biggest foil I need is 980cm2 until I demoed a Code foil. Heaps of lift and glide. They make bigger ones as well.

Waiting on the 860r for downwind which is meant to have more lift than the 980. Previously had to ride 1400cm2 foils at least.

All that math about wing loading leaves out speed. More speed equals more lift.

A heavier loaded wing might take a bit more speed to get up, but once it's up the heavy loading means it's going to glide faster, potentially glide further (because the rider has more speed to play with), and still be able to slow right down because once the flow is attached then you can go very slow and still generate lift.

Part of the appeal of downwind boards is you can get more speed on the surface so it's easier to get up on a smaller foil and do it with a smaller wing. Once up you can rip along at high speed and sip more power from each wave you pass.

noepoxy said..

hilly said..

noepoxy said..Not many brands support foils with that lift profile or boards for that matter for my weight, guess I have to choose my brand wisely and find the best scale ratio etc

Thats why demo is important. At 100kg I cannot believe the biggest foil I need is 980cm2 until I demoed a Code foil. Heaps of lift and glide. They make bigger ones as well.

Waiting on the 860r for downwind which is meant to have more lift than the 980. Previously had to ride 1400cm2 foils at least.

I sup the 1130S in waves it's good for sure, and the 980s but not enough glide etc, have the 1300S too, but on the east coast of aus, have taken both out with a tiny wing and they don't work downwinding at my weight. I use no foil assist, and trying to drop the wing, most 80kgs guys have a ratio of 13+ at a minimum and above and the biggest foil I have is just 13.

Maybe another brand maybe required to unlock it for me downwinding....I doubt the 860r or any of the r series will work at my weight, happy to be proved wrong, but no demo....

I used a 0.5 shim with the 175 tail today but put it in backwards so giving more lift. Works really well. You might want to try that if you do not have enough lift which is surprising. I cannot imagine what the 1300 feels like lol. There is a 1075r now too.

noepoxy said..
yeah I go out at currumbin, out the back head out to sea and try and flag out with 1300S, 1130S and 980S and all don't stay with ocean bumps and give me lift, enough to catch a couple of swells and link but then always have to revert to wing for power. Will probably sell 1300 and go for axis dw setup as it's aimed for heavier riders and east coast of aus is s**t conditions compared to wa

Just went down the east coast of Australia the 980 was awesome over there.

Small medium and large. The 1300 is a large foil. I have not ridden it though. Would love to see a big dog get on one.

noepoxy said..Is this a viable method, is there a better way without demoing or are there too many other variables involved?

There are too many variables demo is the best.

hilly said..

noepoxy said..Is this a viable method, is there a better way without demoing or are there too many other variables involved?

There are too many variables demo is the best.

agreed, but knowing what size to demo is important too, if you are using someone as a comparison, otherwise you end up buying the wrong size for your weight

noepoxy said..
another example is with the 1300S video with casey, he is 84kg I think, so a ratio of 1300 cm2 / 84 = 15.47 and he pumps it so easy, the 1300 doesn't pump as easy as for me

for me to have the same experience (taking skill out of it) I'd need a foil that is 1517 cm2 / 98 = 15.47 and they don't have a foil that is 1517 cm2

You cannot take skill out of it

I could have a 2400 foil and still not pump it. James Casey can pump a 615 where does that leave your formula.

noepoxy said..

hilly said..

noepoxy said..
another example is with the 1300S video with casey, he is 84kg I think, so a ratio of 1300 cm2 / 84 = 15.47 and he pumps it so easy, the 1300 doesn't pump as easy as for me

for me to have the same experience (taking skill out of it) I'd need a foil that is 1517 cm2 / 98 = 15.47 and they don't have a foil that is 1517 cm2

You cannot take skill out of it

I could have a 2400 foil and still not pump it. James Casey can pump a 615 where does that leave your formula.

lol only used casey as an example for weight, it's all about having the same platform.

at 615 it would be the 720s for me, which i use kite foiling, I can pump it a bit but not much as hard with a kite over head

Riding bumps takes years to learn along with being able to pump foils small enough to surf well. I am not a code guy but I think you have purchased the best opportunity you could. Now it's up to you to put in the years of practice.

This is a great video on reading and riding bumps



Also in regards to the original topic it would be great to have a standardised formula for calculating lift ratios that take into account wingspan, surface area and whatever other variables are deemed important. Even if it's not a perfect match to all foil designs it could be a handy reference to help understand the different factors at play in a certain set up. I'm not much of a mathematician but it would be cool if someone wants to throw some formulas out?

Youngbreezy said..
@NoEpoxy

I am in agreeance with Any board. If you've already got the 1130S and 1300S these are probably some of the best wings on the market for a bigger guy to be gliding bumps and downwinding. The Axis art pro 1201 or 1401 would probably be the best other options but I don't know if you would he much of an improvement by going to these wings.
As you get into bigger and bigger wings I feel there is a point of diminishing returns where the wing becomes too slow and draggy to ride the bumps effectively.

I have done a lot of downwinding/ bump surfing with a wing ( no sup downwinding just yet but planning on getting into it once I have my dodgy hip sorted out). At 100kg the best pumping and gliding wing I have used so far is the Axis ART 1099 with a skinny rear. With this set up I can ride indefinitely with the wing flagged out. I have also made some long runs doing drop wallets in winds around 18 knots. I have probably made distances of around 1km unassisted so it's definitely do able for a big guy even in winds that aren't too strong. Sup foiling on the ART 1099 gave me my best pumping and wave connecting so far. I have also had a good go on the HPS 1050 with a wing and doing drop wallets. At 1500cm2 the HPS 1050 was a lot easier to get up on foil but the additional drag meant it didn't glide on the bumps nearly as well as the ART 1099.

if I were you I'd just focus on the 1130s and 1300s and just keep hammering away at it. They are probably some of the best options out there.

Yep I agree with Youngbreezy and Anyboard it takes ages to be able to pump well and to learn to stay on bumps downwind.
I am still learning but can usually stay up for a few Km's
I have lost a fair bit of weight recently (through health reasons that I wouldn't recomend) but am usually around 92 kg (and 62yo) and for downwind Sup, my go to is the 1201 Axis but I use the 1401 when its under around 15knots and 1121 when over 20knots.

I live in WA and am a fairly experienced sup paddler and foiler but at 92kg I was able to paddle the Code 980 up and stay up relatively easy in good ocean conditions once I adjusted to the different feel from the art pro's, if I was to use your formula it would be 980/92 = 10.65.

If I was to buy one Code foil it would be that one, mainly as I already have light wind covered with my Axis wings.

I haven't tried the 1300 Code vs the 1401 Art Pro but I don't imagine it would be much different for a heavyweight to get up in light wind despite its smaller size.

The Codes are fairly lifty for their size and a good wing for learning dw.

As much as I love my 1401, I'd persist with what you have or at least try to demo a 1401 before I went out and bought one.

Edit: whoops No Epoxy you replied whilst I was typing that, it will be interesting g to see how you go on the Axis, they are good but there is no magic wing it will still take time.