Lot's of secret foils! M2O recap:

So if you guys think only top athlete deserve the best foil I think that is sad...

Edo was the best last year on Axis, and is the best this year on Fone, he is just the best no matter what.

R&D could be done early enough to get production foil available for everybody when the Big race comes such as M20.
But I agree it will not happen anytime.
The diff?rence between boards vs foils. You have many options to get custom board but not so much to get custom foil...

But the down side of prototype is it has to be good, because I know some friend sponsored who got some bad prototypes... This is why actually to have the gear going on production it means it works, so it is even better for the brand. Even on the same team, some riders have more chances to get better gear... This could pretty much elimitate the dark horse story.


But once again, seems like Andrew was on full production gear, so...
I don't know him, but it looks like he has been training hard and focusing on those races and it paid off ! I like that.

leepasty said..

paul.j said..
Haha maybe I am just wrong in my thinking, can happen not very often though, haha

So I guess the only way to win a foil race in the future will be to either be sponsored of a company with a big wallet or to have a super big wallet yourself, not sure how this will have an effect on those smaller companies like the Codes and AFS as once the real money flows in and the designers come with big dollars it could have the opposite effect of what many are talking about.

All just good talk anyway as I have no interest in pushing any rules nor do I have the time these days it was just from my experience in these sports that I can see it going down a tricky route.
I will just buy the fastest or best surfing foil I want and stay in my bubble??

Come on man if you are good enough to win any of these races then you are already sponsored

Very untrue, and who would know who was back in the field who could have really been at the front.
I would be pretty pissed if I had just bought the fastest Armstrong on the market thinking I had a fair chance if I had trained as hard as anyone else only to line up and see The Armstrong guys on foils that were faster but had no chance of getting. Nothing like spending $4000 to not have a chance. (Just using Armstrong as a example so Armstrong fan boys don't hate)

I have foiled for as long as anyone and probably done more downwind foiling than most, I have come though all the phases in foils and I know the difference a foil can make. I also know the difference of two people on the same foil and that's what I love to see who really is the best when it comes down to mostly skill and the racing is so tight it's hard to look away.
I remember a time when Ben from Code just got new Axis wings and I was on Gofoil, now we were pretty much dead even on every DW run we did(and we did a lot) when he was riding the same Gofoil wing but as soon as he got his Axis he was faster no matter how hard I tried and then what do you know we would swap and I was faster. It had nothing to do with him getting more skill it was just the foil as that is the major factor in a foil race and if you think riders skill is you are tripping, skill is a factor for sure but foil is the number 1 factor. We are never going to go down the one design way as that is stupid but keeping it fair is not that hard while also keeping it simple.


In SuP racing we were always getting dark horses coming through and most were unsposered, when Boothy first started racing he was unsposered and beat most of the sponsored guys because the base of SUP racing was on the same length board at 14ft so he was on the start line with a very fair chance the same as everyone else and he just proved he was stronger fitter than the rest.

Maybe because I have done so many years of racing plus owed a SUP foil company for so long I just see things a little different the same as Frenchfoiler as he also owns a foil board brand and has traveled the same circles and I guess it comes back to the saying opions are like arseholes we all have them

Like a few have said the chance of anything changing is pretty much zero so it's just all talk and I sure as hell am not getting involved in that side of the sport but as the sport grows rules will come and when they do they usually get made by people who don't make the best decisions and only see $$$$

If I did run a race I would make it main class must be production foils, protos can race but can't win the major race, pretty simple really this way you can see what is the fastest and who is the best plus you get to see who might have some crazy ear coming out. I am not running a race by the way!!

This has been a great read. As an old guy who's gone through this w both windsurfing and SUP. I think you need two classes.

1. Unlimited. Bring it on !!! Push the envelope, hide that hull shape, foil & paddle design. When we say protypes, no one is trying out something for the first time, it's been a long road of tweaks and adjustments. Also, just like the upcoming Olympics, every sport favors different skill types and body composition. This is def a "Lean and Mean" body type sport w balance and wave knowledge being key factors. There's also tactics and rolling the dice w the weather. This type of Pinnacle Race shows the world what can be done.

2. Stock. Gear that has been on market for a (tbd) amount of time and produced at a minimum number (tbd). This sounds like the rest of us. Just good ol' fun. And I think a really intriguing Class that would have world-wide appeal. As mentioned numerous times so far, for us mortals, on any given day, I'm not going to choose the same gear these Pro's are on. Anyways, it was a hoot to watch these guys. Just think, it's barely been over a year and all the brands are putting out DW foils now along w dedicated boards. This is fun.

Piros said..

Back to the prone , gone are the days when Dave Kalama could rock up to a race in 50's and take it out which he did many times. This years M2O had teenagers beating seasoned world class athletes in their late 20's & 30's. The bar just has'nt been raised it gone up by an extension ladder. If you don't think a prone would be faster now how about put a nuclear-powered 18-year-old on a 5-6 x 17" x 30 litre proneboard, don't tell me that's not going to be faster than a Sup he can stand on.

I'm intrigued as to why you think a prone board would be so much faster?

I don't think that the size or weight of the board is the reason Dave Kalama can't match it with the young ones, I put it down to fitness, age and determination etc.

For those out there that dw on prone and SUP and are fairly competent on both are any of you faster on prone?
I know there are a few crew in Perth that do both but I always thought that was more about being able to 'surf' the smaller board rather than going faster?

I could understand a prone could be more fun to throw around and surf but does that translate to faster from A to B?

The argument could be that they are easier to pump, which is true for surfing and linking waves but for DW I'm yet to be convinced that is the case.

Maybe it's because they are more aerodynamic but if you are going with the wind I don't think there would be much difference there either.

Or perhaps its because they are cooler.

eppo said..
haha just was told edo's proto for the race is called the Momentum and was 600cm2 at 17AR!

17!!!!! love to see us muppets trying to make that work.

Will this range be called the Eagle Y ?

eppo said..
haha just was told edo's proto for the race is called the Momentum and was 600cm2 at 17AR!

17!!!!! love to see us muppets trying to make that work.

Don't sell all the Muppets short mate, just imagine at the start when we were riding wings like the 280 Gofoil and at that time thinking we would even be downwinding 1000cm foils and smaller.
Once you learn how to hold a smaller wing at speed it's only the getting it up part that needs work and now boards are so good it is even not that hard with practice.
We are paddling up 700sq cm foils in the flat at 13AR and I am 48 years old and not super light at 80kg so nothing is impossible.

All this info on Edo's foil kind of makes my point as it's crazy for the brand as now all the other foil companies who maybe were not even looking at 17AR foils will now 100% rush some to market and if they are switched on they might even beat Fone. Could be a lot of missed sales or a chance to get riders over on to Fone from other brands missed.
17AR at 600sq would still have a good wingspan so it would be just getting the cambers and thickness right and for sure I bet it glides well at a high average.

Piros said..

tightlines said.I'm intrigued as to why you think a prone board would be so much faster?

I don't think that the size or weight of the board is the reason Dave Kalama can't match it with the young ones, I put it down to fitness, age and determination etc.

For those out there that dw on prone and SUP and are fairly competent on both are any of you faster on prone?
I know there are a few crew in Perth that do both but I always thought that was more about being able to 'surf' the smaller board rather than going faster?

I could understand a prone could be more fun to throw around and surf but does that translate to faster from A to B?

The argument could be that they are easier to pump, which is true for surfing and linking waves but for DW I'm yet to be convinced that is the case.

Maybe it's because they are more aerodynamic but if you are going with the wind I don't think there would be much difference there either.

Or perhaps its because they are cooler.

It's just a physics thing , less is best . You don't see anyone dock starting or going for pump records on a Sup for that exact reason , swing weight is a killer. It will take awhile to come through and sure the paddle helps mid race as well on flat sections but given the talent and youth in this last race anything is now possible.

Eppo said:- haha just was told edo's proto for the race is called the Momentum and was 600cm2 at 17AR!

Seriously 17 aspect ratio that's mental ........

I also can't see the proners ever being faster. To be able to start they need nearly the same, if not the same, size board as the SUP'ers, and it seems like even the top guys are using the paddle through flat sections at times.

What is nice about Bennet showing it can be done prone is that for free-ride downwinding you have more freedom without the paddle and it opens up the downwind to guys that can't be bothered to lean to SUP.

AnyBoard said..
I have to agree with jacko in that they should be production foils.

How would some of the other guys in the top 40 or so have performed on an ar 17 foil? For me it sort of takes something away from Edo's performance hearing that. Plenty of super fit and super skilful athletes in the list with the capability to manage that foil also?

I am excited where this information suggests the designs might be going but it should have been in production.

Also I am not suggesting that punters could win on the fone proto but its performance certainly suggests many of the top 20 athletes could have performed much better with access to such equipment and even win.

Umm
I know the Spencers have tried ar17 and even higher foils but they are using ar14 as felt they could push them harder. just like in americas cup or formula 1 the fastest foil /car is not necessarily the fastest on a course if it's too hard to control for the length of the race

Piros said..
You have missed the point the race has been changed from last year to the start and finish in the wind line. So no you don't need a Sup to prone start. Nothing to do about being too lazy to Sup , this is way harder with heaps more risk but with giddy up speed.

Are you saying they can now paddle up a 4'4" board prone???? The board Bennet used looked like a narrow SUP meaning there is virttually no benefit when pumping.

Similar perspective on Molokai to Oahu.

Strongest correlation aka low age = low place for the top 15 places @ 0.69.

The good news is that this implies a more mature, athletic sport compared to when it might have been dominated by 'skilled' 40 and 50 year olds.

leepasty said..

AnyBoard said..
I have to agree with jacko in that they should be production foils.

How would some of the other guys in the top 40 or so have performed on an ar 17 foil? For me it sort of takes something away from Edo's performance hearing that. Plenty of super fit and super skilful athletes in the list with the capability to manage that foil also?

I am excited where this information suggests the designs might be going but it should have been in production.

Also I am not suggesting that punters could win on the fone proto but its performance certainly suggests many of the top 20 athletes could have performed much better with access to such equipment and even win.

Umm
I know the Spencers have tried ar17 and even higher foils but they are using ar14 as felt they could push them harder. just like in americas cup or formula 1 the fastest foil /car is not necessarily the fastest on a course if it's too hard to control for the length of the race

I guess that's my point. I don't want a race just between Edo, Spencer's, Kane and one or two others who have had the privilege of evolving prototypes that no one else can ride. We are not talking about the fastest foil we are talking about the fastest foil to downwind on which is the purpose of their prototype testing.

In f1 the fastest car around the course almost always wins and it is just a matter of putting a quality driver (not necessarily the best driver) in the seat of the team with the most evolved machine. You think max v is the best current driver? It's become a technology race primarily.

You can easily deal with production vs prototype, and any other perceived differences, by having separate classes. Open class can be anything goes. Production, prone, gender, age, whatever you like.

The results provide a version of truth when you see open class competitors smoked by people in the other classes. In some sports you can see a kid in the grom class finishing high in the Open class, or some old dude winning the codger class and production class and placing in the Open class.

AnyBoard said..

Gorgo said..
You can easily deal with production vs prototype, and any other perceived differences, by having separate classes. Open class can be anything goes. Production, prone, gender, age, whatever you like.

The results provide a version of truth when you see open class competitors smoked by people in the other classes. In some sports you can see a kid in the grom class finishing high in the Open class, or some old dude winning the codger class and production class and placing in the Open class.

Collectively we maybe able to compile a list of those in the top 30 that rode production. It seems the lift guys were on production Florence 110x's which is very impressive. Andrew 3rd and a 16 year old with 1 years foiling in 5th it seems. maybe guido gp760 f4
then James to round out the top 15 on production equipment?

Anyone else have a clue?

The thing it is hard to tell what is prototypes anyway ?? Is a custom mast if mixed up with a production front wing considered a prototype ? etc...

King Crash said..

churry said..

leepasty said..

AnyBoard said..
I have to agree with jacko in that they should be production foils.

How would some of the other guys in the top 40 or so have performed on an ar 17 foil? For me it sort of takes something away from Edo's performance hearing that. Plenty of super fit and super skilful athletes in the list with the capability to manage that foil also?

I am excited where this information suggests the designs might be going but it should have been in production.

Also I am not suggesting that punters could win on the fone proto but its performance certainly suggests many of the top 20 athletes could have performed much better with access to such equipment and even win.

Umm
I know the Spencers have tried ar17 and even higher foils but they are using ar14 as felt they could push them harder. just like in americas cup or formula 1 the fastest foil /car is not necessarily the fastest on a course if it's too hard to control for the length of the race

Yep, and if we assume jack ho and Simeon were also on this f-one prototype wing...

According to Jack's race recap video he was on a 700x, so not the 600 Momentum.

Ah Cheers! Will check it out