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Making my own board - the journey begins...

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Created by Hoppo3228 1 month ago, 15 Feb 2019
Hoppo3228
VIC, 283 posts
15 Feb 2019 5:37PM
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Hey All,

Thought i'd put it out there, mostly to get some advice / ideas and direction...and share the journey!

I've been working closely with (a very patient) Kami on designing a Surf SUP that helps me progress my surfing and lets me have some fun making my own board. I think we've drawn about 8 different LB designs (with multiple revisions) and settled on what you see below.

Most of the waves that I surf are rolling points, with the occasional reef and even more occasional beach break (to which i'll make a different board for). Sometimes waves with size, sometimes not...

Dims 9'4 x 29.5"x 130L - An Eggy Longboard shape

But with a twist...

- a Twinzer fin set up!

www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Account=6301&BoardName=ROUND%20PIN&fbclid=IwAR12KAHC7Ax5fHih7S7sZhSAm5la9MQBgE-BeEi8U3UIyoNHx_QS4xUzgAE



I really enjoy bottom turn drive on a board and then being able to snap at the lip. Fast and loose, with drive..

Here's a brief background on Twinzers for those that don't know : www.swellnet.com/news/design-outline/2014/12/05/twinzers-forgotten-four-fin-design

With Scotty@Smik having success with his Hipster design, I was curious as to how this fin set up would go on a SUP. To my basic knowledge it should work really well. Kami is very positive towards Twinzer set ups for SUPs and highly recommended it, so I thought, what the hell - lets give it a go.

A couple of my friends are surfboard shapers - so I can get some advice there and one of them has a CNC machine, so machine shaping is sorted. Only one of them uses epoxy though. Neither use pvc reinforcement for fin boxes as PU boards don't need them and surfboard EPS is more dense than what is used in SUPs - thus not needed.

The plan is to either:

a/ Make a twin stringered blank and glass with Innegra on deck and rails and glass.

b/ Stringerless blank, Carbon tape stringer and carbon rails, innegra on deck and glass

Fin wise I am looking at FCS2, MR Twin fins with trailing fin (only to use on bigger days) and GX fins as canards. I know most would suggest to add high density foam blocks to put the FCS2 fin boxes in... Am I correct in thinking that could be a little tricky, doing it so close to the rail... Or would it be best to have glass on fins made for this and only put plugs in for the nubster?

I'm not planning on flying with this board (as it is over 9' and Jetstar doesn't accept larger) so glass on fins are not an issue for this.

If anybody has some idea's / or advice that they would like to share, please do.

Cheers!

Nozza
VIC, 2015 posts
15 Feb 2019 8:14PM
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Good luck!
Not qualified to offer advice, but great to see, and what a great idea.
Having said that, divynicel / high density foam inserts are pretty easy - even I have done them, I wouldn't be scared of the rails.
I have bought FCS plugs to fit, and the instructions say resin all the way through the core to the deck, so high density foam probably a good idea.
I reckon stringers are a good idea too.
The little I have done with innegra, and innegra carbon I found it very difficult to wet out / work with.
Please report with lots of photos

colas
3008 posts
15 Feb 2019 6:09PM
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As Nozza said, forget the innegra, it is hell to wet and sand.
On the opposite, carbon is easy to work with.

High density foam around the boxes and handle are highly recommended.

Avoid glass-on fins. Being able to change fins can transform a board, and increase dramatically its range of use.

I would be wary of twinzers. Seems a complex design to do right. Trying to position fins so that they interact in a good way is tricky (the canard wings in planes can change their angle of attack). When I read "By redirecting the water flow the canard "creates a wider effective base" on the main fin" I think: why not just use a fin with a wider base? ... like a C-Drive. But building a board is a personal journey!

Reprobate
30 posts
15 Feb 2019 8:43PM
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Sweet looking planshape!
Innegra can be a pain to work if you're not vacuum bagging. I love the stuff, personally. Makes for a very durable board, but with still good flex. Wetting it out is kind of disarming because it's hard to tell what's wet and what not as you're squeegee-ing on your resin. I'd use a wet out table to wet out the cloth first, roll it up on a piece of PVC pipe, then roll the cloth out on your board. Super easy to work that way. If you're only doing the deck, just take the cloth to the bottom of the rail. Jimmy Lewis did some board construction videos and in one he demonstrated his "poor mans vacuum bag" where he stretched a layer of thin painters plastic over the board and then pulled it tight around the rails. It may take something like that to get the Innegra to stay tight around the rails until your resin sets. And you DONT sand Innegra, it just fuzzes up. Sure, you might have to gently knock down some rough spots, but don't think you'll sand Innegra like you do glass. A layer of glass over will definitely be needed. I use S glass most generally.

Good luck! Have fun and post pics! Sweet looking ride you have!

Hoppo3228
VIC, 283 posts
16 Feb 2019 12:24AM
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Thanks for the tips guys.

I was more thinking of using innegra as a standing area reinforcement - not even going to the rails,(i've only found innegra cloth at 30" wide so far...), also using innerga rail tape ( shapers.com.au/innegra-hybrid-tape-12-strand/ ) and putting it down first on top of the foam wet. Then glassing 2-3 layers over the top - to make sanding easier... But perhaps even then not worth it? Maybe I should just do carbon on standing area if it is much easier to work.

I've seen the vids that Jimmy did about poor mans vacuum - I was thinking of doing that also as it looks to clean up the work easily.

Most retro twin fin surfboards have glass on or set in fins as the force against the fin is very strong with such a large fin - in theory it creates a stronger bond. That was why I was thinking that way.... and to save the hassle with PVC reinforcements.

Kami
1312 posts
15 Feb 2019 9:24PM
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Yes, Colas building your own board is more than a journey, that' s a whole trip.
About the building of the board whatever the kind of, it will be done by an experienced shaper and glasser from Torquay who did a lot of boards.
The glass-on fins are the best way to do it because the set of fins is stuck before laminating the base so the builder and shaper can visually imagine how the water will flow coming along from the planning area, rail and then the fins. Opposite to the plugs system which doesn't allow to see the definitive position of the fins on the board. settling fins is a grave concern but once it's well done, the heart of the board starts to beat
About Twinzers my own view of the canard is a forward front fin catching the flow as hips do on the outline and rail line. This 3D hip makes the board spinning from the front foot pressure when the back foot find a strong drive as the Twinny used to have but with a pulled back position compare to the Twinny. And opposite to the keel which has a single and wide base where the water is cavitating along the foil bases, the water can release and flow between the two fins of the Twinzer.

Hoppo3228
VIC, 283 posts
16 Feb 2019 12:38AM
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Kami - i'm hoping to have a go glassing myself (with supervision), but maybe getting the pro to hotcoat for me... i've found a custom fin maker in Byron who does twinzers! www.bryanbates.com.au/custom-fins , www.bryanbates.com.au/twin-fin-range#/twinzer-3/

colas
3008 posts
15 Feb 2019 11:49PM
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Select to expand quote
Hoppo3228 said..
I was more thinking of using innegra as a standing area reinforcement



Forget it, then. Innegra, like kevlar, is great for impact and tearing resistance (think: bulletproof vests).

For resisting flexing under pressure, you need a sandwich effect, where the strength is given by the thickness of the middle part. So for reinforcing under the feet on the deck, a sandwich construction would be best: use some 3mm/5mm compression-resistant foam (PVC) sheet between layers of fibers, and some poor (or rich) man vacuum technique.

SunnyBouy
314 posts
16 Feb 2019 1:21AM
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Ohhh, another board build thread

I've got no advice, mind if I just hang around and follow the journey until,it gets wet ?

tarquin1
140 posts
16 Feb 2019 2:47AM
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Sanded have some interesting products. Basalt Innegra hex weave.

Kami
1312 posts
16 Feb 2019 4:35AM
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Select to expand quote
colas said..

Hoppo3228 said..
I was more thinking of using innegra as a standing area reinforcement




Forget it, then. Innegra, like kevlar, is great for impact and tearing resistance (think: bulletproof vests).

For resisting flexing under pressure, you need a sandwich effect, where the strength is given by the thickness of the middle part. So for reinforcing under the feet on the deck, a sandwich construction would be best: use some 3mm/5mm compression-resistant foam (PVC) sheet between layers of fibers, and some poor (or rich) man vacuum technique.


A sandwich construction on the standing area reinforcement of 3 or 5 mm thick need a location of 3 or 5 mm deep. Otherwise, it will have a bump of materials on the deck. I can design that location and the CNC router can do it. In case of the disk of the APS 3000, this location will be impossible to be made.
It would look like this


MangoDingo
NT, 218 posts
16 Feb 2019 7:08AM
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Select to expand quote
SunnyBouy said..
Ohhh, another board build thread

I've got no advice, mind if I just hang around and follow the journey until,it gets wet ?



Goin off Hoppo - how sick is this gonna be !?!!!

mate, I've got no idea what you blokes are even talking about, so, I'll be at the back of the shaping bay over here watching and learning with Sunny.

supthecreek
1682 posts
16 Feb 2019 8:25PM
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Great project Hoppo.... always fun to make a board from start to finish.
Looks like a fun shape!

Brenno
QLD, 656 posts
16 Feb 2019 11:24PM
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Cool. Really hope it turns out awesome.

Tardy
2829 posts
17 Feb 2019 4:05AM
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Taking on the job hoppo .
I'll fix em but I won't build em .
scared I'll stuff it up . ( the shaping part ) it sure is a art to make a board .

good on ya for giving it a go .

my input is glass matting ,seems to be easier to work with .
even though I love carbon

keep us posted ..this will be good

Kami
1312 posts
17 Feb 2019 4:55AM
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Hoppo3228 said..
Kami - i'm hoping to have a go glassing myself (with supervision), but maybe getting the pro to hotcoat for me... i've found a custom fin maker in Byron who does twinzers! www.bryanbates.com.au/custom-fins , www.bryanbates.com.au/twin-fin-range#/twinzer-3/



Hoppo, Bryan Bates is the man who has to fit the right set of fins to your SUP Twinzer, I have a look on the links you had pointed on www.bryanbates.com.au/custom-fins and www.bryanbates.com.au.

It would be good to have some advice from this Twinzer expert about tail lift and outline curves of the actual roundpintail outline and its profile been edited up here.
Looking at this shorty twinzer, I wonder if I should design a swallowtail on your board...



Hoppo3228
VIC, 283 posts
17 Feb 2019 8:02AM
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Hey Kami,

Bryan Bates is 1700kms from where I am... i'm happy to order fins from him and get advice, but the freight cost etc would be more than what the board costs to get it to him...

Tardy
2829 posts
17 Feb 2019 8:47AM
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Select to expand quote
Kami said..

Hoppo3228 said..
Kami - i'm hoping to have a go glassing myself (with supervision), but maybe getting the pro to hotcoat for me... i've found a custom fin maker in Byron who does twinzers! www.bryanbates.com.au/custom-fins , www.bryanbates.com.au/twin-fin-range#/twinzer-3/




Hoppo, Bryan Bates is the man who has to fit the right set of fins to your SUP Twinzer, I have a look on the links you had pointed on www.bryanbates.com.au/custom-fins and www.bryanbates.com.au.

It would be good to have some advice from this Twinzer expert about tail lift and outline curves of the actual roundpintail outline and its profile been edited up here.
Looking at this shorty twinzer, I wonder if I should design a swallowtail on your board...




funny you'd say that on the tail kami .

i have 3 boards as quads even though different fin placements to the twinzer .

the square tail feels the best ,as would the swallow tail....with a quicker release .coming from the tail..because you have the extra fin

maybe the drive of the round pin would stiffen it up a bit more ...and be more drivey than loose ..it would still work of course .

I've ridden a lot of twins and they all where swallow tails ,or square tail ..might be a good point to think about .hoppo .

unless a thruster is your preferred set up .Me.rounded pin thruster

Hoppo3228
VIC, 283 posts
17 Feb 2019 9:14PM
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Hey Tardy,

Most of Kami and my conversations on a long sup board design have been to use a diamond tail... To square off the tail a bit...and make it feel a bit more shortboardy.

On this shape though, Kami is adamant that the rounded pin would be better so we have gone that way so far.

One of my fav surfing Long SUP boards is the Nalu pro - and we have used quite a bit of that shape on this board. It is interesting to note that the Nalu Pro uses a Bat tail...

Usually my fav fin set up is a thruster with larger side fins and a smaller middle fin. I'm not usually a fan of quads, too locked in for me...

I've never surfed a twinzer, but am keen to try (after reading all the tech jargon about the design).

Kami
1312 posts
17 Feb 2019 11:57PM
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Diamond, bat, swallow, moon, fishtail... whatever is the tail shape the most important is the direction of the rail line from widest point to the hips ( near the fins are) with the amount of tail lift and plan shape of the tail. This is all mix of these geometric parameters does the real action of the tail.
I mean, it's like looking at a fishtail. in the case of the Fishtail, everyone is looking at the two points of the fishtail...but it's the straight and parallel rail of the outline and the hole between the two tail's points through the tail which should be seen in first. Because the straight and parallel rail line is holding water flow when the hole in the area in the tail allows to finally bury one of the two pintails hooking the straight rail and keel in the water.
So on Hoppo's board, we went to the round pin tail because this board is going to be surfed from more the centre rather than the tail. The optional knubster of the Mrx doesn't stand too much area around to be efficient so the narrow pin tail belongs to itself. Also, some width needed around the main fin and its leading fin to give the most powered planning area of the Twinzer system. despite of its narrow dims the Batail has been forgotten because of the use of the disk on CNC APS 3000. A router would do the BAtail nor a disk.
But baby swallow would straighten the end of this originally round pin. And I can still design that classic one I hope Hoppo would agree with this new option
.

Tardy
2829 posts
18 Feb 2019 3:59AM
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Hoppo3228 said..
Hey Tardy,

Most of Kami and my conversations on a long sup board design have been to use a diamond tail... To square off the tail a bit...and make it feel a bit more shortboardy.

On this shape though, Kami is adamant that the rounded pin would be better so we have gone that way so far.

One of my fav surfing Long SUP boards is the Nalu pro - and we have used quite a bit of that shape on this board. It is interesting to note that the Nalu Pro uses a Bat tail...

Usually my fav fin set up is a thruster with larger side fins and a smaller middle fin. I'm not usually a fan of quads, too locked in for me...

I've never surfed a twinzer, but am keen to try (after reading all the tech jargon about the design).


I can see it now .

great size .should be interesting ,when do you start ?

Hoppo3228
VIC, 283 posts
18 Feb 2019 7:00AM
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Kami,
Sure, I'm ok with a swallow tail... aesthetically I don't like very much (on a fish board it's ok), on a longboard I prefer the look of a diamond or round pin. Although performance is what matters at the end of the day.

Tardy,
next week or so. just want to lock in final design first.

Kami
1312 posts
18 Feb 2019 7:17AM
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Here below the diamond tail. To get it I start to design a swallowtail, enlarging and straightening from the hips close to the front fins. I've read your past inputs then finally I switch for the Diamond Tail. Look nice, isn't it?

Hi Tardy, thank you for your input about Twinny


www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Account=6301&BoardName=DIAMOND+TAIL

JEG
VIC, 1026 posts
19 Feb 2019 9:11AM
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interesting project gents and can't wait to here more it.

I read that article and one of the photo showed Twinzer with a nub fin and it looks like your normal 5 fin box setup, is that right or is that a dedicated Twinzer 5 box setup?

Kami
1312 posts
19 Feb 2019 6:34AM
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Select to expand quote
JEG said..
interesting project gents and can't wait to here more it.

I read that article and one of the photo showed Twinzer with a nub fin and it looks like your normal 5 fin box setup, is that right or that a dedicated Twinzer 5 box setup?


It's dedicated Twinzer 5 boxes set up. I have to say that originally, I've been influenced by a twinzer shaped by LSD, 5 years ago I found this board really up-to-date . So I built to myself 3 Twinzers SUP with different Twinzer set up and all of them work fine. This one is with Mr +Gx from FCS + knubster or a small centre fin as trailer fin.

Here the definitive file going to CNC. Out of the hand finishing of the tail block at its very end, the shape from this file is fully completed ready to glass.
www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Account=6301&BoardName=DIAMOND+TAIL

Hoppo3228
VIC, 283 posts
19 Feb 2019 1:39PM
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Awesome Kami, thank you!



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"Making my own board - the journey begins..." started by Hoppo3228