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Paddle Trainer out of the water

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Created by IanInca 1 month ago, 23 Jan 2020
IanInca
56 posts
23 Jan 2020 4:33PM
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Wondered if anyone had done a DIY system to help train paddling when out of the water. It's the middle of a very blustery winter, work commitments and being a parent means not as much time on the water. I want to keep my back, arms and shoulders trained. There's several prone surf bungees on the market and a very expensive ergometer sup trainer. Anyone using/done anything?

colas
3657 posts
23 Jan 2020 7:35PM
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Yes, I am refining one myself, with surprisingly good results.

I wanted to experiment with something very cheap. I started with bungee cords but it doesn't work, the feeling is not the same than real paddling. My current setup (no actual pics yet it is raining) is the red line with just one pulley. If your space is limited, I guess you can be closer to the pole by adding a ground pulley (green line).

You thus need a pulley at about 2 meters high, a rope, a broken paddle, a weight (I use a 5 l full water container). the Pulley should be fixed so that your wobbles do not transmit to the weight and make it oscillate.

The weight gives you an inertia which reproduces very well the actual paddling. The trick is to let the weight get down and stop and re-raise it with the "catch" motion of the paddle, this way you can develop a lot of force on the catch by making your "catch" movement as quick as you want.
I was toying with the idea of adding fluid dampening of the weight, maybe with some wings acting as air brakes, or something on the cord?



IanInca
56 posts
24 Jan 2020 12:21AM
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colas said..
Yes, I am refining one myself, with surprisingly good results.

I wanted to experiment with something very cheap. I started with bungee cords but it doesn't work, the feeling is not the same than real paddling. My current setup (no actual pics yet it is raining) is the red line with just one pulley. If your space is limited, I guess you can be closer to the pole by adding a ground pulley (green line).

You thus need a pulley at about 2 meters high, a rope, a broken paddle, a weight (I use a 5 l full water container). the Pulley should be fixed so that your wobbles do not transmit to the weight and make it oscillate.

The weight gives you an inertia which reproduces very well the actual paddling. The trick is to let the weight get down and stop and re-raise it with the "catch" motion of the paddle, this way you can develop a lot of force on the catch by making your "catch" movement as quick as you want.
I was toying with the idea of adding fluid dampening of the weight, maybe with some wings acting as air brakes, or something on the cord?





I like that as you adjust weight with less or more water. If you can add pictures when you can that would be good. As you say the weight dropping could do with being slowed a little. Nice idea!

colas
3657 posts
24 Jan 2020 12:51AM
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IanInca said..
As you say the weight dropping could do with being slowed a little. Nice idea!




Yes, Currently I must take care to consciously slow the weight when it reaches the top to avoid the cord becoming slack and the weight colliding with the pulley. Nothing serious, but it breaks the immersion as it is something you do not have to care for while paddling on the water. So something that would slow the weight as it comes close to the top.

I may try to see if some bungee tying the weight to the ground, and only acting on the top of the trajectory could provide this. Or some slack spring around the cord attached to the top bar. Or some brushes. Or...

Helmy
VIC, 717 posts
24 Jan 2020 9:50AM
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I bought one of these.
Exxy new, but I hung around the 2nd hand websites until I got one at a good price

www.waterrower.com.au/

The water dampening is effective, and makes it sound and feel like you're on the water.
Very important when you're stuck inside in winter!
Its far less noisy than an air dampened rower, and stores easily.
Completely variable in terms of effort, just row harder or slower, so good on the body too.

password
NT, 5 posts
24 Jan 2020 8:41AM
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colas said..

IanInca said..
As you say the weight dropping could do with being slowed a little. Nice idea!





Yes, Currently I must take care to consciously slow the weight when it reaches the top to avoid the cord becoming slack and the weight colliding with the pulley. Nothing serious, but it breaks the immersion as it is something you do not have to care for while paddling on the water. So something that would slow the weight as it comes close to the top.

I may try to see if some bungee tying the weight to the ground, and only acting on the top of the trajectory could provide this. Or some slack spring around the cord attached to the top bar. Or some brushes. Or...


... a very large tub of water. Let the container splash into it and it will simulate whitewater.

Play this whilst practicing,


.. and post a video (sped up of course).

Gorgo
VIC, 4317 posts
24 Jan 2020 10:39AM
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Helmy said..
I bought one of these.
Exxy new, but I hung around the 2nd hand websites until I got one at a good price

www.waterrower.com.au/

....



I found the WaterRower hurt my back. If you go slow there's very little load. You need to go hard to get a strong workout and that can lead to bad form and pain.

I tried mine with a stick attached to the cable to simulate paddling. It was too much like waving a stick around.

On the plus side, I sold mine for what I paid for it.

The one thing that has worked for me is a dumbbell set and a workout app. Go into the spare room. Fire up the app. Do the exercises. Job done.

colas
3657 posts
24 Jan 2020 3:11PM
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On the other cheap methods I considered but not tried:

Buying a cheap round inflatable kid pool, and stand on a stool in the middle of it, and paddle:



Tying one bungee to the top and one to the bottom of the paddle:



Or finding a discarded ergometer and salvaging it
www.supboardermag.com/2015/07/03/build-your-own-sup-ergo-trainer-for-less-than-50/

FinsUp, I know you are joking but the dampening is needed for the upwards movement of the weight, so that you can apply full paddling force without launching it into orbit, but not the downwards part as it would then make the cord slack that can induce wobbles.

password
NT, 5 posts
24 Jan 2020 9:10PM
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Yeah I think I know what you mean. That would be hard to do without losing the sensation of having the paddle feel totally free of any forces during the back (forward) airborne stroke.
Ive never used a rowing machine do they have a strong return pull? That guy on supboardermag mentions they can be quite strong in resistance. Wouldnt want to do an injury.
For all the gadgetry i reckon a small pool would be the way to go. Most realistic paddle hard or slow. But would need some sort of barrier in there to stop a vortex forming otherwise would definitely break something when swapping sides and suddenly pulling against the current.

colas
3657 posts
24 Jan 2020 8:08PM
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FinsUp said..
For all the gadgetry i reckon a small pool would be the way to go. Most realistic paddle hard or slow. But would need some sort of barrier in there to stop a vortex forming otherwise would definitely break something when swapping sides and suddenly pulling against the current.


Yes.
Maybe having 2 rectangular pools side by side and ride between them: a vortex in each pool.

The good exercise machines (bike, elliptical, rowing) provide some inertia (you rotate a heavy flywheel) and a fluid dampening, often via inducing electrical currents in a moving magnetic field, like a bike dynamo, as having actual water in them is not practical. Cheaper ones use a flywheel + friction by applying tension on the belt.

I was thinking of using a bike dynamo - or any DC electric motor - as a pulley, or attached to the pulley.

cantSUPenough
VIC, 1894 posts
25 Jan 2020 9:48PM
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FinsUp said..
For all the gadgetry i reckon a small pool would be the way to go. Most realistic paddle hard or slow. But would need some sort of barrier in there to stop a vortex forming otherwise would definitely break something when swapping sides and suddenly pulling against the current.


I have been known to paddle while standing next to our pool. The pool needs to be full enough so the surface is up near the top, or you have to crouch a little. You just paddle a bunch on your left side then rotate 180 and paddle on the right side.

A few little issues:

1. If you paddle for too long the water starts moving too much so when you paddle on the other side you are paddling against the current
2. You need a small paddle that you are happy to occassionally impact on the edge of the pool. I have been tempted to drill a few holes in the paddle blade to reduce resistance.

It is handy if you just can't get out in the water.

colas
3657 posts
27 Jan 2020 11:29PM
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colas said..
I may try to see if some bungee tying the weight to the ground, and only acting on the top of the trajectory could provide this.


Well, after some experimenting, this seems to work quite well, it was exactly what was missing.

This way you do not have to control yourself to not hit the pulley, and the bungee sends back down the weight full force, so you can sustain a faster paddling frequency, close to an actual sprint on the water, and it adds force to the "catch" phase, so you get more tired per exercise time, which is the goal.

I have my phone playing rock playlists beside me, and paddle on one side during a full song and switch for the following one, but barely with a 5kg weight, I could not use an heavier one.

The bungee cord length should be so that when fully extended it just prevents the weight to hit the pulley. On my setup it is slack until the weight is about half way up.
I tried with a broken surf leash, to gets some dampening, but they are not stretchy enough (even the 5mm ones) and stops the weight too brutally.

I made a kind of harness with strings around the container so that I can attach the bungee to the bottom of it so that cord and bungee are aligned when in tension.

I will keep experimenting a bit more to tweak things. I am going to buy 5kg exercise weights (less than 20 euros) to replace the container so that it is less bulky and gain a bit more range of movement. I will make a video once I feel I have the final design.

I use it outdoors, attached to a clothesline pole, but I guess it could be adapted for indoor use.

Note: the pulley is actually a spare roller for sliding gates, they are designed for outdoor use and are quite robust. I use a 1cm wide cord in it so that the cord is too big to get derailed.

Current state:

IanInca
56 posts
28 Jan 2020 6:20AM
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colas said..

colas said..
I may try to see if some bungee tying the weight to the ground, and only acting on the top of the trajectory could provide this.



Well, after some experimenting, this seems to work quite well, it was exactly what was missing.

This way you do not have to control yourself to not hit the pulley, and the bungee sends back down the weight full force, so you can sustain a faster paddling frequency, close to an actual sprint on the water, and it adds force to the "catch" phase, so you get more tired per exercise time, which is the goal.

I have my phone playing rock playlists beside me, and paddle on one side during a full song and switch for the following one, but barely with a 5kg weight, I could not use an heavier one.

The bungee cord length should be so that when fully extended it just prevents the weight to hit the pulley. On my setup it is slack until the weight is about half way up.
I tried with a broken surf leash, to gets some dampening, but they are not stretchy enough (even the 5mm ones) and stops the weight too brutally.

I made a kind of harness with strings around the container so that I can attach the bungee to the bottom of it so that cord and bungee are aligned when in tension.

I will keep experimenting a bit more to tweak things. I am going to buy 5kg exercise weights (less than 20 euros) to replace the container so that it is less bulky and gain a bit more range of movement. I will make a video once I feel I have the final design.

I use it outdoors, attached to a clothesline pole, but I guess it could be adapted for indoor use.

Note: the pulley is actually a spare roller for sliding gates, they are designed for outdoor use and are quite robust. I use a 1cm wide cord in it so that the cord is too big to get derailed.

Current state:



That seems great. I'll wait to see your video before I try and set it up..

colas
3657 posts
29 Jan 2020 10:17PM
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Here is the video:





details:
I used four 1.25kg weights, on a wood bar, with the dyneema cord going through a hole in it. I also include a pic of my rope harness around the water container.



















IanInca
56 posts
30 Jan 2020 5:24AM
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You have nailed that Colas! Fair play nice effort..

JEG
VIC, 1469 posts
30 Jan 2020 9:02AM
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great design colas

password
NT, 5 posts
30 Jan 2020 10:14AM
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Fantastic!!!
Could jump on one of these for the complete workout,
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Balance-board?page=1#8

ghost4man
337 posts
30 Jan 2020 11:20AM
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I have to say I have been in discussion with Colas lately about this but more related to the issie of balance.

His idea above is EXCELLENT. It has served the purpose of seeing how I can transpose this idea into a gym environment since you already have the weighted pulley system in place.

I think what you could also migrate to is the inclusion of a Bosu ball whereby you practice the art of paddling on an unstable surface.

Just to add I have found doing exercises like pull ups, seated rows to be extremely helpful in so far as building up paddling strength if done correctly.

Well done Colas!

colas
3657 posts
30 Jan 2020 9:48PM
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ghost4man said..
It has served the purpose of seeing how I can transpose this idea into a gym environment since you already have the weighted pulley system in place.


Yup, I see that some pulley systems should be easily adaptable. the trick is to have something that gives you enough travel, but not too much force. Maybe by using multiple pulleys:


On my single-pulley system, I would be wary of breaking the paddle by using more than 5kg weight. A simple indoor system that you could snatch onto a door frame could be:





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"Paddle Trainer out of the water" started by IanInca