Nice work Chris P.....I wouldnt have a clue, but It looks well thought out and well presented.

I reckon the 12'6 argument is a hog wash. The guys that win on the 12'6 would go even faster on 14's. I thought the comments were typical.

Yeah but those guys apply that same will to a faster board, means they go even faster.

These guys are not really normal paddlers.

Of course normal guys go faster on bigger boards, so do bigger guys. My point is that and as we have all seen for fact that these guys just like everyone else go faster on bigger boards. It might even it up a bit but I am sure that they would win regardless of board size, they don't know how to lose. Your will power comment proves it.

laceys lane said...
.........most of the crew are on 14'ers.

if they were on 12'6's they would be in for very rude shock on how much farther behind they would be

cheers

about a foot and a half I reckon.......

I have always raced on big boards and I am about 96-98 kgs I have never raced and barely paddled a 12'6 so doing the doctor tomorrow should be a steep learning curve on a 12'6 so I might be the guinea pig for the theory

rager said...

laceys lane said...

CMC said...

Yeah but those guys apply that same will to a faster board, means they go even faster.

These guys are not really normal paddlers.

thats what mean, unless you are really really good, get the bit longer board because if you think you are going to paddle a 12'6 like them your dreaming.

case in point. kelly out paddles every one at training on a 12'6. most of the crew are on 14'ers.

if they were on 12'6's they would be in for very rude shock on how much farther behind they would be

cheers

I know the feeling

haha, so do i. its a terrible shock when on equal boards

For those that didn't read the article or the comments the criticism of the ratings was that bigger guys were disadvantaged as most of the results came from 12'6 races.

Here is some simple mathematics for you;

The argument is that bigger guys can not go as fast on 12'6 as they are too small, that lighter guys have the advantage in that class.

I believe that the same light weight and increased power to weight ratio of guys like Jamie, Travis and others on this list is just the optimum size for paddling in general. If you make the 14' class standard and put them on 14's the weight to power ratio does not change, they are still strong for their size. Put them on a hull with a longer waterline and they get faster too, this eliminates any advantage to the bigger guy or at least does not create an advantage big enough to win for a bigger paddler.

The results will only change if you keep the lighter guys on 12'6 and put the bigger guys against them on 14's to even the weight versus displacement. People who make these claims seem to forget that while Hercules paddles faster on a 14' than a 12'6 that so does a smaller guy.

We've been here many times before.

The national stereotype of Aussies is that they are a plain-speaking, no-nonsense people. So I'm not surprised to see so many posters to this thread call out this 12-6 argument. Good on yer.

So, in case there is any doubt, let's be plain:

At the moment, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL THAT 12-6 BOARDS DISADVANTAGE HEAVIER RIDERS.

There is however some evidence that weight (alone) is NOT a significant factor - see PT Woody's and Robert Stehlik's outstanding 12-6 race board trials.

Maybe in the early days of SUP design it might have been true. But not now.

Most heavier riders are either FAT, or OLD. And I say that as someone who is both FAT and OLD. This will likely skew any data. In scientific parlance there is a "statistical confound" between weight, age and fitness, meaning that you can't find a representative sample where all these factors vary independently so you can actually see if weight is a problem on its own.

And then there's balance. Fat old guys like me have dodgy balance - this being something that gets especially rapidly worse after the age of 40. The reason why I generally prefer paddling a 14ft board is because it means I can paddle a narrower one, so it is easier to get a correct paddle stroke.

Weight in itself is also a problem - check your balance in choppy waters when you are wearing a 3 litre camelbak vs. when you take it off, and you will see what I mean.

These issues may mean that many heavier riders may prefer 14ft boards. But they are not good arguments for why the elite paddlers should paddle 14ft boards.

If you put all the elite paddlers (or anyone else for that matter) on 14ft boards rather than 12-6 ones the rank order in which they arrived home at a race would probably hardly change at all. It is merely that they would all arrive a few mins earlier.

So let's now turn to the argument that we should be paddling faster boards, because going faster is good. Well if you want to paddle fast DON'T PADDLE A SUP. SUPs are one of the slowest paddle craft. A 14 ft board is infinitessimally faster than a 12-6 in the right hands (and slower in others). But it is still WAY SLOW.

So it really doesn't matter what length you choose when you compete. We aren't competing with surfskis. So you might as well choose a size that all people (esp. women and younger folk) can carry, and that costs the least to move around, if you want an international series.

And in relation to other races elsewhere, I don't believe that the speed differential between a 12-6 and a 14 in flat water will make much of a difference in most races worldwide. It is simply tiny compared with the difference between paddlers. A great paddler will still simply kill everyone else, except perhaps a paddler of equal skill on a longer board.

Now, if we want to go FAST then it is most likely that we can do that going downwind. BUT we need to relinquish this fixation with a single-bladed paddle. Give us a 21 ft SUP, a double-bladed paddle, a board you can move around on in order to take advantage of SUPs inherent advantage of being able to shift weight, and perhaps even allow "flying squirrel" suits to make the most of the wind, and THEN you might go fast relative to other craft.

D'ya know what? I'd give it a go! I'd be laughing all the way (and so would everyone else) but I definitely give it a go...

Now, please, no more about this "rider X can't win because he is too heavy for a 12-6".

There are plenty of examples of elite SUPers who have significantly bulked up through their training, and are actually going faster than they did before, even on 12-6 boards. Connor Baxter, Kai Lenny etc are not fast because they are light. They are fast because they are young, fit, and damn good.

Probably in time we will discover the optimal physiques (and ages) for the different disciplines of SUP (sprint, BOP, DW, endurance, whitewater, surf etc), just like in every other power-to-weight sport which has different forms (e.g. cycling, running, rowing etc.).

But one thing is for sure, it won't boil down to simply "if you weigh over 200lbs you must paddle a board over 12-6".

So until there IS evidence that heavier riders are overwhelmingly disadvantaged on 12-6 boards, that unsubstantiated belief cannot be a good basis for determining craft stipulation for an international race.

LL - not sure who your comment was aimed at, but if it was me, we may be talking at cross-purposes.

I was making the point about the ISA/World Series type decision where everyone is made to ride 12-6 and it is all about the elite paddlers.

I'm all for people being able to paddle whatever they want in amateur/local races.

In fact, I'm not sure that it wouldn't be preferable just to say for those kinds of races, "the first one across the line wins" and not even bother with classes. Then make sure that the course is such that no particular length board has a huge advantage (e.g. slalom sections, upwind/downwind, etc) and people can pick what they think is best (or have with them).

But then again, I generally think there is too much equipment regulation going on at races. For such a fantastically new sport, we haven't half rushed headlong into rules and regulations. I don't see as I said above, why we are stuck with stretched-out OC paddles. Why not double-bladed if you want, just as long as you stand up? It's called "stand up paddling" not "stand up paddling with a certain type of paddle that has to be...etc".

Or for that matter, why only single hull? Hell, why can't we paddle whatever we goddam well want (as long as we are standing) and the first person home gets the glory? Let innovation reign. It would be a much better spectacle.

Too radical an idea for most, though, I appreciate.

Area 10,
The references to heavier paddlers is more orientated to Elite Heavier Guys, like Dave Kalama, and Laird Hamilton, and Chuck Norris (er, I'm mean Patterson).

Strictly speaking, you're probably right that there's no hard evidence about 12'6 being a disadvantage to heavier elite guys. But it would be easy to set up a course, get 10 different sized paddlers, time them all around a course on two different 12'6 boards. Same again for two difference 14's. You could then develop some all in average speeds for each board. Plus you could analyse the differential times for each rider. You might find that the smaller guys are 10% faster on a 14, and the bigger guys might be 13% faster on the 14's. Who knows... Would be an interesting experiment.

One thing is for sure, top class 14's are faster than top class 12'6's.

surely good shapers are taking into consideration the weight of the paddler when they design and build a board......clubbie mal shapers have been doing it for years.

Speaking of the big guys like Chuck and Dave....I just dont think they are as good as the top 3 or 4 guys doing the short coarse stuff.....Moliki distance may be a different story....but remember where DC and TG come from, being 2 of the best oc1 paddles in the world.

I think Jamie might be older than that....like 34-35

Simondo - yes, you've hit the nail on the head. That is what I was saying earlier - there is a confound between weight and age in the current elite paddlers. Whilst you were writing your last post I was looking up the ages of a few and came up with some approximate ages like this:

Laird Hamilton = 47
Dave Kalama = 47
Chuck Patterson = 41

Jamie Mitchell = 29?
Danny Ching = 28
Travis Grant = 27?
Kai Lenny = 19
Connor Baxter = 17
Slater Trout = 16

So until you can find some elite paddlers aged 18 who are built like Laird, it's going to be very difficult to disentangle age and weight in any set of results.

And then there is the fact that the older guys may choose quite different events for different reasons (i.e. they may like open ocean events because that is the tradition of paddling they grew up with). And because of that they may be more used to larger boards. If Oahu to Molokai in heaving seas and howling winds on a 17 ft board has been your benchmark, then 5 miles in flat water round some bouys on a 12-6, fighting with a bunch of kids half your age, is going to seem a bit....well...what would you think? So of course you are going to see 12-6 boards as part of that, and not able to really deliver what you are interested in.

I really think you guys are missing something here,god gave you arms and hands so use them,best paddle in the world

62mac said...

I really think you guys are missing something here,god gave you arms and hands so use them,best paddle in the world

fair enough mac. we are doing a dw er at 1 pm, bring ya mal along and paddle it from kirra to currumbin with us.

it would be good to see you flog us with your arms and hands