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Why are Perth surfers not more political in improving surf quality

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Created by GCT1965 > 9 months ago, 7 Jun 2020
GCT1965
21 posts
7 Jun 2020 12:11PM
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Good morning

I grew up in Perth but dont live there anymore and consider myself lucky that I havent had to surf there in 20 plus years.

However the place once you get north of Cottesloe does have relatively consistant swell just a lack of quality waves.

At least in Bunbury Airwaves is having a go at something that is relately low cost. I hope for Perth surfers sake they can make it work and it can be brought to Perth.

Artificial reefs using rocks are expensive and people underestimate the power of ocean to move and undermine them.

What Perth does have is lateral sand drift.

Groynes make to much of a dramatic change but if this sand can be captured and held slightly offshore or as extensions to natural reef Perth could have dozens of more waves.

We invest in looking after ovals for sport. Why not a mobile machine simply digging small channels to create rips to form a bank.

Once you start to analyse how much surfing kiting etc actually contributes to the economy its significant.

So You have the numbers to agitate for this with politicians but it seems like we are stuck with the mentality that politicians dont care or worry about surfers.

I think that's only because no one is pushing to be heard.

Buster fin
WA, 2565 posts
7 Jun 2020 6:45PM
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And going by the numbers in the water, every politician's granny and her lap dog is enjoying the benefits of some salty action, but no, there are more important things and peoples to pander to.

GCT1965
21 posts
7 Jun 2020 6:56PM
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Buster Fin
It's not addressed because our elected members dont think there is votes in it.

Where there are consistant waves in other places community develops. It becomes the focus and meeting place. Gives a sense of place and belonging.

Razzonater
2224 posts
7 Jun 2020 7:24PM
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We are
they built cable reef, totally fluffed it put it in not shallow enough and in the wrong area
cost a couple million

we tried to build a wave garden and the snot nosed electorate where we were going to build it kicked off and lost a vote, than they bribed/ coerced there local council not to build it....

there is already waaaay to many grounds which stops any banks from staying around long, additionally all our sand dunes cannot move anymore as it's built up to 100 metres of the coast.

Agree that we need two or three reef formations 50-100 metres off the beach between city beach and Scarborough but at a million bucks a go and with a failed track record it won't happen.

Ctngoodvibes
WA, 1401 posts
7 Jun 2020 8:05PM
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Urbnsurf the go I reckon at cockburn central
not much soul but be nice to have perfection in tap for 79 bucks

TimKay
752 posts
7 Jun 2020 8:09PM
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I think the kids of Perth need a decent and consistent wave to keep them off the gear and in the water
There is a reason why there is no Perth kids pushing it on the WQS and the average 8 year old on the Goldy would surf rings around the average Perth surfer
If Perth had anything but backwash closeouts it would be a different story

GCT1965
21 posts
7 Jun 2020 8:28PM
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Not sure of the numbers but where I live it's a about 100000m3 of sand moves laterally south to north. I assume it's the same in Perth. Compare that to on the Gold Coast which I think is about 500000 m3 annually.

Airwave offers a far lower cost alternative.
I wonder if you could pin a sea blanket to the floor and capture sand by seeding certain seagrasses that naturally capture and hold sand.

But councils water and mow playing fields. I think at a most basic level putting a machine on the beach to move up and down and move some sand around would be comparable cost.

Will not stick around but same as a footy oval becomes unusable unless watered and mowed continuously it could be a continuous operation.

I think they did it once at Scarborough for an air comp ??

Razzonater
2224 posts
7 Jun 2020 9:36PM
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What would work is tyres
heaps of car tyres bolted together and the bottom row covered with quick set concrete

The tyres would encourage weed growth and settlement of sand

cheap easy and could bolt more on to increase the size of the reef.

Buster fin
WA, 2565 posts
8 Jun 2020 4:51AM
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Razzonater said..
What would work is tyres
heaps of car tyres bolted together and the bottom row covered with quick set concrete

The tyres would encourage weed growth and settlement of sand

cheap easy and could bolt more on to increase the size of the reef.


That was tried back in the day. First storm, gone.

GCT1965
21 posts
8 Jun 2020 9:34AM
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Florida had a environmental diaster trying this at a thing called Osborne Reef. But they used metal clips to bind the tyres. I dont think they embedded the base with concrete.

Not sure how long they take to breakdown in the ocean.

On land the foredune is made up of plants that only grow as sand builds up until.the foredune becomes the primary dune and other species take over as it stabilises.

I assume there must be similar seaweeds that grow as sand deposits on them and hence could be used to hold a volume of sand.



curlzbean
WA, 46 posts
8 Jun 2020 12:27PM
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Emu beach Albany are using some big sausage sand bags to trap sand, they would be perfect sitting out under water to trap the summer sand drift, proven durability and easily destroyed if need be... or we can all fill up a dog poo bag with sand every time we paddle out and drop it out the back.. free from your local council and with the crazy numbers we have going out In the water we could have a bank going half way to rotto

MickPC
8266 posts
8 Jun 2020 2:11PM
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Always thought extensions on reefs like in front of Karrinyup Rd, Kathleen St, Hammersley etc would work well with some kind of sculpting to fill in the holes & finding optimal depth to increase wave frequency in the most common tidal range. I remember skateboarding along that stretch of coast, looking at some reefs & thinking geez its almost surfable. I did surf the reef on the right side of grannys pool alot when I was a kid on summer afternoon higher tides, just foam bash'n on the foamie. That was mums goto beach to take us kids.

Open stretches of sand is a lot more difficult. When I first got "high speed internet" iinet ADSL 1 with a DL rate of a whopping 30 kb/s (about 6x faster than dialup on a good day) & I think 3 gigs data that I used in a few days(about 2002). I used to look at some surf cams alot, there was one at Mettams, the artificial reef at Cott that only broke in storm swells & an articial reef in Queensland. Somewhere along Surfers Paradise I think. From memory they dumped heaps of sand bags. They were able to create a decent wave but it didn't last. I think the bags sunk into the sand or sand just built up around them & the shape was lost. I don't remember...maybe this is it www.coastalwatch.com/surf-cams-surf-reports/qld/artificial-reef

Prior to that I thought Contacio's was the go. But I think its a real challenge when your dealing with sand. There is a little bit of reef there that could possibly be used as part of the construction. But I think its more on the inside than the outside...dunno. But probably best to build something offshore that will allow sand to pass on the inside so it doesn't fill up on the South side too much.

But yeah, not only Perth, but a lot of places in WA could really benefit from sculpting our reefs to produce more surfable waves....& of course also improve the environment by providing additional habitats for the lil fishies

chrispy
WA, 9675 posts
9 Jun 2020 5:56AM
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GCT1965 said..
Good morning

I grew up in Perth but dont live there anymore and consider myself lucky that I havent had to surf there in 20 plus years.

However the place once you get north of Cottesloe does have relatively consistant swell just a lack of quality waves.

At least in Bunbury Airwaves is having a go at something that is relately low cost. I hope for Perth surfers sake they can make it work and it can be brought to Perth.

Artificial reefs using rocks are expensive and people underestimate the power of ocean to move and undermine them.

What Perth does have is lateral sand drift.

Groynes make to much of a dramatic change but if this sand can be captured and held slightly offshore or as extensions to natural reef Perth could have dozens of more waves.

We invest in looking after ovals for sport. Why not a mobile machine simply digging small channels to create rips to form a bank.

Once you start to analyse how much surfing kiting etc actually contributes to the economy its significant.

So You have the numbers to agitate for this with politicians but it seems like we are stuck with the mentality that politicians dont care or worry about surfers.

I think that's only because no one is pushing to be heard.


So how much financial intrest or gains do you have from wanting all this to happen ?

GCT1965
21 posts
9 Jun 2020 2:48PM
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chrispy said..

GCT1965 said..
Good morning

I grew up in Perth but dont live there anymore and consider myself lucky that I havent had to surf there in 20 plus years.

However the place once you get north of Cottesloe does have relatively consistant swell just a lack of quality waves.

At least in Bunbury Airwaves is having a go at something that is relately low cost. I hope for Perth surfers sake they can make it work and it can be brought to Perth.

Artificial reefs using rocks are expensive and people underestimate the power of ocean to move and undermine them.

What Perth does have is lateral sand drift.

Groynes make to much of a dramatic change but if this sand can be captured and held slightly offshore or as extensions to natural reef Perth could have dozens of more waves.

We invest in looking after ovals for sport. Why not a mobile machine simply digging small channels to create rips to form a bank.

Once you start to analyse how much surfing kiting etc actually contributes to the economy its significant.

So You have the numbers to agitate for this with politicians but it seems like we are stuck with the mentality that politicians dont care or worry about surfers.

I think that's only because no one is pushing to be heard.



So how much financial intrest or gains do you have from wanting all this to happen ?


Chrispy none at all.

I have started a process to gather up stakeholders to push for change to get better quality waves in another part of WA.

This is as a private citizen and because it's so important to our community.
I barely surf at the moment courtesy of lower back issues and some of the stuff I am pushing for may take 10 years to happen.

Many years ago managed to get an annual sand replenishment programme done by the local authority in a way that brought beautiful waves for about 6 weeks to our local groms.

Ran out of energy to keep it going then but have returned to the battlegrounds now to have another go at trying for longer term solutions.

After seeing the pretty horrible banter between people down south and others stuck in Perth in the lockdown on here it got me thinking how with the same type of funding committed to surfing that other sports get could transform Perth's usually dismal surf.

Hydromann
626 posts
9 Jun 2020 4:22PM
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Interesting topic and good on ya GCT for bringing it up.

I've been out of surfing for quite a few years, 30 to be exact. And recently back into it at 55 with the required adjustments in board size to suit my current ability (lack of).

Part of that and my research to finding the right solution (board) led me to a surf board and shaper by the name of Greg Webber. I had one of his Double Diamonds at 6'10, and a rippa board to boot until it snapped.

Long story short, what drew me to the Webber was the lateral thinking and design considerations he employed, which as I check into him further where not limited to sled design only.

Greg has a deep passion for evolving of the surf culture and sport, not just through sled design but also how people engage in the aquatic environment and with nature. And like many Greg has seen the need for the sport to evolve to the next level to accommodate the ever increasing demand for waves.

Now as I have just come back into the sport after a long absence I can see the merit in his endeavours. From someone who has just hit the lineup again it seems to me that on one hand tribalism or locals only mentality and attitude is alive and well, and on the other there seems to be a general acceptance of all comers. And most of this changes from location to location and with the availability of decent waves.

For instance there is a "spot" north of Perth that has some awesome reef lefts and rights, and it is protected shall we say by the locals who feel a right or privilege to that wave, and to some degree yeah because it is their back yard. But attached to that is a significant amount of hostility in wanting to protect "their" wave.

And then down south of Perth there is a "secret" spot which is not secret and the attitude in the line up is completely different, friendly, chatty and in general a good bit of banter and fun.

So to me coming back into this sport, it seems that the competition for waves directly impacts the social acceptance or aggression that is encountered. The more abundant the waves the less aggression that exists, the more localised the wave like a reef or point and teh more crowded the more aggression and frustration that exists.

Which is all counter what most of us actually want to go and surf for, to unwind, to relax, and to have fun.

So the solution seems simple? Make more reefs or banks and everyone is happy. Apart from the fact of environmental considerations involved and the longer term effects on the ecosystem.

Tyres break down into toxic contaminants, artificial reefs effect the flow of currents and sand deposition, and artificial banks do the same.

But back to Mr Webber, Greg had put his thinking cap on for what I would think is a well considered solution.

Floating banks.

Check out his web site and give him a call. I'm 100% sure he will be super chatty about the benefits and upcoming projects and how something similar could be done for our vast untapped coastal resource.

And yes, I do believe if these things are proven to be as good as Greg claims that any government or council that jumps in and invests in these things at good swell locations will reap the rewards of increased tourism. Waves that are no longer at peeling off the fickle finger of a point built by mother nature alone.

webber-reefs.com/

Phil27
WA, 194 posts
9 Jun 2020 7:52PM
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Did a little digging and found this from 12 months ago - any idea if this has progressed at all?? If funding is an issue I reckon some local cashed up surfer investors would be keen to get involved if there's some sort of financial return involved (along with a wave). Red tape might be an entirely different hurdle..

I'd be keen to try and drum up some interest if this is still something progressing down the pipeline (btw I am not a cashed up surfer! Might know some though).




Hydromann
626 posts
9 Jun 2020 8:54PM
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Phil27 said..
Did a little digging and found this from 12 months ago - any idea if this has progressed at all?? If funding is an issue I reckon some local cashed up surfer investors would be keen to get involved if there's some sort of financial return involved (along with a wave). Red tape might be an entirely different hurdle..

I'd be keen to try and drum up some interest if this is still something progressing down the pipeline (btw I am not a cashed up surfer! Might know some though).





Nooooo not Trigg.

That's already got a reef break, aaaarrrrgggghhh.

We need these things at locations where there are no, or weak established banks, not at already populated and popular locations.

But still it's a starting point I guess, and for that AWESOMENESS double thumbs up.

So where is it??

Or when is it??

jbshack
WA, 6913 posts
10 Jun 2020 10:08AM
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I wonder how many people talking about lack of decent surf in Perth metro have ever done the trip from North to south or reverse via boat within 1km from shore? Maybe not so i'll explain. When you leave Mindarie (where i live) and head down the coast. The wave conditions change dramatically along the way. The number one location for clean rolling swell is from Scarb to Swanbourne. Hands down. North of Trigg to say Waterman is very short and confused but still has some punch (for want of a better word) but a little all over, not clean lines. Mullaloo region is actually rather soft, no swell really to talk of. From Cott south to the Freo heads, very little of anything again, much the same as Mullaloo North.

So the issue is i guess, swell being blocked offshore. The direction of swell normally SW to SSW determines the best location to harness is Scarb to Trigg.

Add to that little of nothing from Trigg South to Floreat, what do people expect?

Cables reef was a great idea, but built in a location that only will work on a large, and particular swell direction.

IMHO anything built, needs to be in the SCarb to City beach Region.

Hydromann
626 posts
10 Jun 2020 11:15AM
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jbshack said..
I wonder how many people talking about lack of decent surf in Perth metro have ever done the trip from North to south or reverse via boat within 1km from shore? Maybe not so i'll explain. When you leave Mindarie (where i live) and head down the coast. The wave conditions change dramatically along the way. The number one location for clean rolling swell is from Scarb to Swanbourne. Hands down. North of Trigg to say Waterman is very short and confused but still has some punch (for want of a better word) but a little all over, not clean lines. Mullaloo region is actually rather soft, no swell really to talk of. From Cott south to the Freo heads, very little of anything again, much the same as Mullaloo North.

So the issue is i guess, swell being blocked offshore. The direction of swell normally SW to SSW determines the best location to harness is Scarb to Trigg.

Add to that little of nothing from Trigg South to Floreat, what do people expect?

Cables reef was a great idea, but built in a location that only will work on a large, and particular swell direction.

IMHO anything built, needs to be in the SCarb to City beach Region.


Really? How far south didn't you go in your assesment?

Because down south of Rockingham is a ripper patch that catches a good window of swell through a break in the outter reef, it's just got **e banks. Put some swell catchers in there and you've got an instant wave mecca.

There are patches all along the coast the same, out back of penguin island in the channel between it and seal island catches big swell when it seems like nothing around but has no reef or banks to exploit it.

Lots of windows of opportunity all along the coast that would need to be identified and mapped out for the best results.

But yeah, agree that there is also lots of potential and windows up north as well. For instance the beach just north of the Spot catches a ripper swell from the SW, all wasted on a monster shore break, and if big enough then the outter bank sometimes shapes a peak which a mid length or mal could collect before hitting the shore.

So many prime locations and potential opportunities, would be great to exploit at least one or two north and south to benefit everyone. And like I said, I reckon it would boost tourism to specific locations massively. Even just the novelty aspect for people in the first instance, would not take long for local councils to recoup the investment through increased business.

Ctngoodvibes
WA, 1401 posts
10 Jun 2020 12:39PM
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There are waves on those outer reefs hydro but you need 2 x bazookas and 4 shark shields to surf em

jbshack
WA, 6913 posts
10 Jun 2020 3:35PM
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Hydromann said..

jbshack said..
I wonder how many people talking about lack of decent surf in Perth metro have ever done the trip from North to south or reverse via boat within 1km from shore? Maybe not so i'll explain. When you leave Mindarie (where i live) and head down the coast. The wave conditions change dramatically along the way. The number one location for clean rolling swell is from Scarb to Swanbourne. Hands down. North of Trigg to say Waterman is very short and confused but still has some punch (for want of a better word) but a little all over, not clean lines. Mullaloo region is actually rather soft, no swell really to talk of. From Cott south to the Freo heads, very little of anything again, much the same as Mullaloo North.

So the issue is i guess, swell being blocked offshore. The direction of swell normally SW to SSW determines the best location to harness is Scarb to Trigg.

Add to that little of nothing from Trigg South to Floreat, what do people expect?

Cables reef was a great idea, but built in a location that only will work on a large, and particular swell direction.

IMHO anything built, needs to be in the SCarb to City beach Region.



Really? How far south didn't you go in your assesment?

Because down south of Rockingham is a ripper patch that catches a good window of swell through a break in the outter reef, it's just got **e banks. Put some swell catchers in there and you've got an instant wave mecca.

There are patches all along the coast the same, out back of penguin island in the channel between it and seal island catches big swell when it seems like nothing around but has no reef or banks to exploit it.

Lots of windows of opportunity all along the coast that would need to be identified and mapped out for the best results.

But yeah, agree that there is also lots of potential and windows up north as well. For instance the beach just north of the Spot catches a ripper swell from the SW, all wasted on a monster shore break, and if big enough then the outter bank sometimes shapes a peak which a mid length or mal could collect before hitting the shore.

So many prime locations and potential opportunities, would be great to exploit at least one or two north and south to benefit everyone. And like I said, I reckon it would boost tourism to specific locations massively. Even just the novelty aspect for people in the first instance, would not take long for local councils to recoup the investment through increased business.


I can go as far south as you like, but i said and the post is about METRO beaches. I really personally refer metro as North of Freo and south of Mindarie..

GCT1965
21 posts
10 Jun 2020 7:03PM
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It's good to see everyones ideas.

Growing up and exploring from swanbourne to mettams felt like we often had swell just limited places with shape.

South of Swanbourne always felt half the size of triggs.

Going north beyond Mettams I dont know much about it.

We are gathering up stakeholders in our push for change in our area which I guess is what metro surfers would need to do.

Council elections have such low turn out a block of voters can easily get it on the agenda.

At a state level Scarborough for example has 22000 voters in the last state election so a block of say 2000 voters start to becomes a meaningful voice.

As a starting point would love to see an experiment with some machines on the beach to see if a bank can be set up.

Anyone remember what happened at the aircomp when this happened.

JESUSGUS
WA, 168 posts
11 Jun 2020 12:03PM
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An action group set up with social media linked into local boardriders clubs schools and retail stores would be a start. Now is a good time to get going with a fiercely election coming early next year.

Lisa Harvey is the member for Scarborough and being the leader of the opposition may show an open mind. I seem to remember the key to getting the cables reef up and going was the upcoming election.

GCT1965
21 posts
11 Jun 2020 12:47PM
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JESUSGUS said..
An action group set up with social media linked into local boardriders clubs schools and retail stores would be a start. Now is a good time to get going with a fiercely election coming early next year.

Lisa Harvey is the member for Scarborough and being the leader of the opposition may show an open mind. I seem to remember the key to getting the cables reef up and going was the upcoming election.


Ok that sounds like a great place to start.
We have one from each side in the two electorates we are looking to see changes made and are speaking to both.

Stage one for us is a lot easier than making something happen in the metro area but this can be pitched as both wave creation and coastal protection together.

I still think getting funding for Airwaves so that can be tested would be great. It's an open beach solution but have never connected with the guy behind it.

I am happy to start that group and play secretary and organise some meetings with politicians at state and local level.

But at the end of the day it will need to be driven by people in Perth and up and down its coast.

GCT1965
21 posts
12 Jun 2020 11:35AM
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www.facebook.com/groups/3021208661309639/

Ok I have created a Facebook group for anyone interested.

This is focused on metropolitan Perth as the better and more waves in Perth the greater the easing of pressure on our surfing communities to the north and south.

I did a first post in the group about an idea I have but for the conspiracy theorists here I have no financial interest nor wish to create and financial interest in any product or idea.

Sauvage
1 posts
15 Jun 2020 4:45PM
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Not from Perth but you should also consider the environmental impacts of what you're after. Disrupting longshore drift via groynes can not only disrupt the local ecosystem but it cause erosion downdrift of the site.

Beyond funding issues the environmental impact would (and should) be a major hurdle. Best of luck to you if you can find a way to do it though!

katana
WA, 644 posts
15 Jun 2020 8:18PM
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I spent a lot of time working on this 15 years ago with modelling from a wa oceanography company and did some full size prototyping off one of our beachies it was pretty successful creating the sand flow we were after and learnt a lot about it .
we took it to surfing wa and local authorities but ran into a lot of red tape as the seabed was controlled by the dept of mines .
it was a simple system easily deployed and removed .

GCT1965
21 posts
16 Jun 2020 6:10AM
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katana said..
I spent a lot of time working on this 15 years ago with modelling from a wa oceanography company and did some full size prototyping off one of our beachies it was pretty successful creating the sand flow we were after and learnt a lot about it .
we took it to surfing wa and local authorities but ran into a lot of red tape as the seabed was controlled by the dept of mines .
it was a simple system easily deployed and removed .


Hi Katana and Sauvage
My first round at this must be about 10 years ago. Groynes are an antiquated idea as the create to much impact onshore.

My idea for an open beach is a pinned blanket and seeding seagrasses. This will hold a certain volume of sand and allow the rest to move on.

Airwaves trying to get funding for round 2 and from what I can see has far less impact than a groyne on sand movements.

Reef areas are more complex and i assume more expensive.

Still believe though that for the main metro beaches they should be treated the same as playing fields and funding applied to maximise their surfing and other water sports potential.

Katana what was the solution you settled on ?

Cobra
9106 posts
16 Jun 2020 10:05AM
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I'm sure some will love this concept especially if some financial gain straight up or flow on And in these times why not.
but I'm scratching my head thinking WA wants this. The home of , shoosh it's a secret spot, (I know there is no secret spots) but why do you want more development??? I was lucky to surf in the 70s 80s on the east coast and I can tell you the Gold Coast can build a 100 of these and in 20 years time have the same problems. I know this sounds so hippie but This is why surfing is ****ed these days. And this concept is why. Young people won't see this now but wait 20 years,just Look around the world. Sorry This is not an attack on your post. just an old blokes beliefs.

GCT1965
21 posts
16 Jun 2020 10:38AM
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Hi Cobra
I know what you are saying about endless development. Not sure the answer to that one as we have built a world where we have to make stuff and do stuff to sell to get money to live.

So I guess spending money to harness some sand in a way to make waves seems like as good as way as any to spend money compared to other places we throw money.

I think Barton Lynch said once surfing is a waste of time but what a glorious way to waste time.

katana
WA, 644 posts
17 Jun 2020 10:21AM
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Select to expand quote
GCT1965 said..

katana said..
I spent a lot of time working on this 15 years ago with modelling from a wa oceanography company and did some full size prototyping off one of our beachies it was pretty successful creating the sand flow we were after and learnt a lot about it .
we took it to surfing wa and local authorities but ran into a lot of red tape as the seabed was controlled by the dept of mines .
it was a simple system easily deployed and removed .



Hi Katana and Sauvage
My first round at this must be about 10 years ago. Groynes are an antiquated idea as the create to much impact onshore.

My idea for an open beach is a pinned blanket and seeding seagrasses. This will hold a certain volume of sand and allow the rest to move on.

Airwaves trying to get funding for round 2 and from what I can see has far less impact than a groyne on sand movements.

Reef areas are more complex and i assume more expensive.

Still believe though that for the main metro beaches they should be treated the same as playing fields and funding applied to maximise their surfing and other water sports potential.

Katana what was the solution you settled on ?


We mothballed the project but still have the structures until there was more interested parties or backers
our aim was to create sand flows and channels in our straight summer banks and remove when the winter banks returned
the testing looked positive but was only done with swell up to 2mtrs due to the anchouring needed .



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"Why are Perth surfers not more political in improving surf quality" started by GCT1965