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Neil Pryde Ali (Pinkie) modifications

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Created by Adam555 > 9 months ago, 16 Aug 2019
Adam555
WA, 162 posts
16 Aug 2019 11:25PM
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As many will know that have used a NP Pink or the later greens/blue Ali foil these aren't necessarily the easiest foils to use, typically they need a bit more wind and in terms of stability due to the short fuselage are quite unstable for/ aft (I broke my foot using one of these sailing in gusty 15-20+knots so I know!)

Having a chat with Reg and Dan at Windsurfing Perth (WSP) .who have quite a few of these foils new in stock, a plan was hatched to work on making a small conversion kit ie for new buyers and existing owners so these foils can be made much more user friendly.. so as a bit of a winter project with lots of support from WSP (who provided a NP pink foil and various wings) the scope was set as follows:-

1. Make a set of adapters to enable the NP Glide large wings to be used on the NP Pink mast & fuselage plus improve stability fore/ aft ie make fuselage longer
2. Make a set of extensions to significantly improve stability fore/ aft using the original & later versions of the NP Ali wings. Additionally, address issue of using the foils on old boards or foil-ready crossover board as you always struggle to get the centre of lift in the right spot because you can't get the mast far enough back or the straps in the right spot
3. Make a set of extensions to improve stability fore/ aft using the current NP Glide fuselage (which is about 90mm longer already than a pinkie) and std Glide wings. Additionally, address issue of using the foils on other boards per comment above
4. Other.made adaptors to convert NP RSX to run NP Glide wings plus longer fuselage etc

From the experience I have had playing with various fuselage lengths on the RSX I targeted a revised fuselage length in the range 0.9-1.1m, all parts from 6061 aluminium which was then anodised to 25microns. The exercise has taken a bit longer than planned due to work plus have had to have a few goes at getting the right extension lengths.
All testing was done on a JP 135 foil board with 7.7m NP sail and I weigh 85kg


1 NP Pink to Glide conversion with tail extension




This works really really well and took a few goes to get the front extension length correct so the lift point enables you to be comfortably in the straps but makes what was already a very stable wing set amazingly easy to sail on the NP Pink mast/ fuselage. Speed caps out quickly which am sure is wing related but perhaps this is now the foil NP should have brought out 1st. Extra fuselage length is noticeable and gives plenty of time to adjust things.. In short after a few months of trail an error is now a super super easy stable foil to sail in 12+ knots

2 NP Pink/ Ali extensions (front & rear)



This was perhaps the biggest step change ie works sensationally has huge increase in stability perhaps a bit front foot lifty at the moment (still tuning) but you can now actually sail along and change your ride height by body position or very small movements of the mast without crashing/ over correcting in a huge way ie you have plenty of time to decide how you want to trim the height/ respond to gusts point or come off the wind. Foil feels fast and the extensions seem to cut a lot of the foil whistle out.

Big learning from this one was around the front wing. There was another SB thread where CJW moved the front wing forward on an NP F4 I must admit didn't fully absorb/ appreciate the reasoning at the time as in this exercise the front wing was moved forward more to use on std or foil ready boards BUT having the extra front extension with the tail angle means you have almost constant lift at the front so you're mainly in the straps pushing down from a trimming point of view hence overall control was much much easier if that makes sense ?

I noticed a recent SB thread on PWA fuselage lengths involving +'s for the distance of the front wing to the mast and I now strongly suspect this may be about chasing control via the position of the front wing as certainly the extra length at the front combined with the longer tail and built in upward lift in the makes board trimming so much more controllable ...in fact fun as you chase speed by just pushing down on the front foot not trying to keep level in the 1st instance.

3 NP Glide kit

Yet to test, but parts as you can see are made and don't see any issues with this working - will be testing with a NP glide fuselage and a std 'foil ready' board rather than the foil board in the next few weeks and suggest will be a winner especially for std or crossover board users who have this foil or want the best of both worlds ie the tail will definitely add stability from testing above and it's just how the extra forward position of the wing feels that needs testing

4 NP RSX glide and tail extension

Yet to test RSX-Glide conversion set but again see no reason why won't work ie Based on (1) detailed above as is the same dimensionally


I have tested the RSX tail extension and this works well improving the stability a lot, is a very simple mod but works extremely well for those that have this foil. Elmo is going to trial now so will be keen to hear his thoughts.

Note:- all the NP Ali tail extensions have positive lift built in by a machined taper so no washers etc are required. This can of course be tuned out if needed but my experience is that everyone who uses one of these NP Ali foils always has the washer into create more lift, so we designed the tail to do this from the outset.


Any way to cut a long story short the plan is to get a batches of the NP pink kits made up (per 1,2 & 3 above) and Reg will sell as kits including the bolts in the next 1-2months, am just looking at the best way to do this now so is cost effective as all the parts to date have been fully machined by hand which is time/$$ prohibitive, this certainly wasn't planned as a money-making exercise more a bit of fun plus helps get some new life out of the NP pink foils.

Stay tuned hopefully we can get a few people out with the mods to get more feedback and contact Reg at WSP if you want a set.

Paducah
1862 posts
16 Aug 2019 11:37PM
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Frankenfoils

I can't compliment you enough on the work (shame I can only give a single green thumb) and, even more, sharing the process with us. Dumb question from a stranger on the internet- by the time you are doing both adapters, it seems you are close to having done a fuse? What's the difference in time and materials?

Maddlad
WA, 664 posts
17 Aug 2019 7:31AM
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Well done Adam, I'm sure they'll help make the NP AL Pinkies a good cheap option for anyone wanting to get into foiling. :)

CAN17
556 posts
17 Aug 2019 9:12AM
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Wow great stuff. I only wish I had this on my Neil pryde alu during my first year foiling. Its a Shame NP didn't just make a longer fuse for the alu's. A lot of people like me just wanted to buy a cheap foil and plug into a deep tuttle board for there first flights. But we found the foil so back foot heavey and ended up upgrading to a different setup(at least that what I did)
But I think this is the best(quickest/cheapest) way to go about upgrading your fuse to get some great rides

Adam555
WA, 162 posts
17 Aug 2019 12:16PM
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Paducah said..
Frankenfoils

I can't compliment you enough on the work (shame I can only give a single green thumb) and, even more, sharing the process with us. Dumb question from a stranger on the internet- by the time you are doing both adapters, it seems you are close to having done a fuse? What's the difference in time and materials?


Thanks for the feedback Paducah. I agree a whole fuselage would be cleaner but having made two fuselages now I think there is a lot less work and less cost for material in the adaptors/ extensions evengoing the way of say a SS style fuselage which is the simplest one I've seen issue is because the wings bolt on for the Np and especially the glide needs a lot of frontal machining which means you still do the same work but have to buy more material and pay for more anodising.
Key with this was trying to make a really cost effective upgrade that obviously worked but was easy to add to what you have

Adam555
WA, 162 posts
17 Aug 2019 12:23PM
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Maddlad said..
Well done Adam, I'm sure they'll help make the NP AL Pinkies a good cheap option for anyone wanting to get into foiling. :)


Thanks Matt have to get you on this as I know you'd feel the difference to your original Ali and be keen to hear how it compares to the SB GT you're in now

Paducah
1862 posts
17 Aug 2019 12:59PM
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Select to expand quote
Adam555 said..

Paducah said..
Frankenfoils

I can't compliment you enough on the work (shame I can only give a single green thumb) and, even more, sharing the process with us. Dumb question from a stranger on the internet- by the time you are doing both adapters, it seems you are close to having done a fuse? What's the difference in time and materials?



Thanks for the feedback Paducah. I agree a whole fuselage would be cleaner but having made two fuselages now I think there is a lot less work and less cost for material in the adaptors/ extensions evengoing the way of say a SS style fuselage which is the simplest one I've seen issue is because the wings bolt on for the Np and especially the glide needs a lot of frontal machining which means you still do the same work but have to buy more material and pay for more anodising.
Key with this was trying to make a really cost effective upgrade that obviously worked but was easy to add to what you have


Thanks - appreciate the insights. I'm sure this project will be encouraging to a lot of pink owners. In m neighborhood, they are sharply discounted vs other used foils. Again, well done.

Duamanix
3 posts
18 Aug 2019 10:52PM
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Great job, Adam, i have also build a Short Extension for the np al flight, but i know the big step is to move the frontwing forward.

photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNWg9D7sd7-rzv3wjJ8vER0USLNfa87P-wnQTatTBktW3jibfjOM0ns4yf5W722lA?key=SUhDOUItdDlPRHZTbFVBN1l5bTlXTnRJbUlTcEVn

next step is cut the back Extension an adapt the frontwing.

Adam555
WA, 162 posts
19 Aug 2019 1:04PM
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Duamanix said..
Great job, Adam, i have also build a Short Extension for the np al flight, but i know the big step is to move the frontwing forward.

photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNWg9D7sd7-rzv3wjJ8vER0USLNfa87P-wnQTatTBktW3jibfjOM0ns4yf5W722lA?key=SUhDOUItdDlPRHZTbFVBN1l5bTlXTnRJbUlTcEVn

next step is cut the back Extension an adapt the frontwing.


Looks great, keen to see how you get on. I'd leave the extension you have as is for the back and go forwards around 90-100mm

CJW
NSW, 1708 posts
21 Aug 2019 9:46PM
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Nice work Adam, looks good. Great to breathe some life into the old NP ally, can't believe how they got that one so wrong!

RE the SB plus+ race fueselages they are mainly for super light conditions. Due to the greater AoA the foils run in those conditions it's helpful to move the centre of effort forward so the balance feels similar to when powered up on the normal fuse. By all accounts if you are light they are very difficult to keep in the water once it picks up to even medium conditions. I know with my super extended F4 fuse I have to play around with trim a lot depending on what rig/wind conditions in order to keep it under control.

Ken767
WA, 72 posts
31 Aug 2019 9:39PM
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Today I got to try out the NP Alu with the fuselage extensions thanks to Adam. I first went out on the normal NP Alu foil with the G10 wings for a few runs then swapped over to the extended fuselage with all other settings unchanged. The difference is significant. my first observations were that there is much more lift and the undulating motion is much more smooth/less sudden. I had to put the mast track a few cm forward and boom down to counteract the lift. Managed to truck upwind easily compared to without the extensions. Also gybes seemed easier as foot change didnt affect the flight as much. Speedwise the extensions didnt seem to slow things down much. The stability may allow for more speed in the gusts once i get used the setup. Will have to try the set up with the rear wing in the neutral position to reduce the lift as i sometimes had my back foot forward near my front foot (im a lightweight). I can see that the extensions can breathe new life into the NP alu foils. Great work Adam!

Maddlad
WA, 664 posts
1 Sep 2019 8:14AM
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Adam555 said..

Maddlad said..
Well done Adam, I'm sure they'll help make the NP AL Pinkies a good cheap option for anyone wanting to get into foiling. :)



Thanks Matt have to get you on this as I know you'd feel the difference to your original Ali and be keen to hear how it compares to the SB GT you're in now


Of course. I'd be happy to test them for you. :)

Adam555
WA, 162 posts
18 Sep 2019 9:45AM
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NP GLIDE UPDATE
As noted in original post we made a kit for the std NP glide fuselage with both front and rear extensions. Despite my initial optimism the front extension length turned out to be too long and it's taken a few goes to get the length correct - pretty sure we've cracked it now though plus had to dial out a bit of the lift built into the tail as the lift combined with overly long front extension made for quite a twitchy foil !

After 2+ hrs in primarily 10-13 knots yesterday am very happy with current set up which seems to get going earlier than a standard glide and much better than the std glide with just a tail extension (a lot more comfortable) is more stable once up (pretty slow rise/fall) plus has great balance relative to straps (slight front foot pressure required) ... as you can see from the picture of the water there wasn't much wind but going 80-90% of the time which is surreal when water is dead flat and conditions are light! ( rider 85kg, sail 7.7m)













VAILIYATBEN
23 posts
24 Sep 2019 1:52AM
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Ken29 said..
Today I got to try out the NP Alu with the fuselage extensions thanks to Adam. I first went out on the normal NP Alu foil with the G10 wings for a few runs then swapped over to the extended fuselage with all other settings unchanged. The difference is significant. my first observations were that there is much more lift and the undulating motion is much more smooth/less sudden. I had to put the mast track a few cm forward and boom down to counteract the lift. Managed to truck upwind easily compared to without the extensions. Also gybes seemed easier as foot change didnt affect the flight as much. Speedwise the extensions didnt seem to slow things down much. The stability may allow for more speed in the gusts once i get used the setup. Will have to try the set up with the rear wing in the neutral position to reduce the lift as i sometimes had my back foot forward near my front foot (im a lightweight). I can see that the extensions can breathe new life into the NP alu foils. Great work Adam!

VAILIYATBEN
23 posts
24 Sep 2019 7:45AM
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VAILIYATBEN said..

Ken29 said..
Today I got to try out the NP Alu with the fuselage extensions thanks to Adam. I first went out on the normal NP Alu foil with the G10 wings for a few runs then swapped over to the extended fuselage with all other settings unchanged. The difference is significant. my first observations were that there is much more lift and the undulating motion is much more smooth/less sudden. I had to put the mast track a few cm forward and boom down to counteract the lift. Managed to truck upwind easily compared to without the extensions. Also gybes seemed easier as foot change didnt affect the flight as much. Speedwise the extensions didnt seem to slow things down much. The stability may allow for more speed in the gusts once i get used the setup. Will have to try the set up with the rear wing in the neutral position to reduce the lift as i sometimes had my back foot forward near my front foot (im a lightweight). I can see that th jiofilocalhtml.gen.in/ e extensions can breathe new life into the NP alu foils. Great work Adam!








Today I got to try out the NP Alu with the fuselage extensions thanks to Adam. I first went out on the normal NP Alu foil with the G10 wings for a few runs then swapped over to the extended fuselage with all other settings unchanged. The difference is significant. my first observations were that there is much more lift and the undulating motion is much more smooth/less sudden. I had to put the mast track a few cm forward and boom down to counteract the lift. Managed to truck upwind easily compared to without the extensions. Also gybes seemed easier as foot change didnt affect the flight as much. Speedwise the extensions didnt seem to slow things down much. The stability may allow for more speed in the gusts once i get used the setup. Will have to try the set up with the rear wing in the neutral position to reduce the lift as i sometimes had my back foot forward near my front foot (im a lightweight). I can see that the extensions can breathe new life into the NP alu foils. Great work Adam!




Quote



tonyk
QLD, 441 posts
31 Oct 2019 7:28PM
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Hi Adam
I sent you a private message re extension kit
cheers Tony

Adam555
WA, 162 posts
18 Nov 2019 2:32PM
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Upgrade kits now available

Just to let anyone that was interested in these modifications have put together :-
- x20 full kits (front and rear) for the NP Rs flight ( Ali pink or green version) and
- x5 full kits for the NP glide plus;
- x15 tail extensions for the NP glide
All kits come with S/S bolts etc to suit

All kits are with Reg at windsurfing Perth (WSP) for sale....Wasn't a $$ making exercise believe me !

just by way of follow up as well the glide modifications were sailed extensively since my last update in September and are highly recommended to anyone that has one of these foils - tail perhaps gives most Benefit interms of improved stability but the front extension gives that little bit more front foot pressure which also assists with stability/ overall ease of use of this upgraded foil

Maddlad
WA, 664 posts
19 Nov 2019 10:43AM
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Well done Adam.

Adam555
WA, 162 posts
19 Nov 2019 12:21PM
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Thanks Matt was a fun exercise !

ab01
QLD, 87 posts
19 Nov 2019 3:17PM
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Adam, with the Glide are you adding the extensions to the long fuselage (81cm) or the short one (73cm)?

Adam555
WA, 162 posts
19 Nov 2019 5:05PM
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Glide Extension kits with Reg are for the glide fuselage ie long(81cm) one.

Rs flight kits are for the short fuselage ie original pink 70+ cm one

i have made and trialled a kit that converts the short one to a glide and this worked well as you'd expect but have been only made one of these

regards

Adam

tonyk
QLD, 441 posts
24 Jan 2020 6:03PM
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Adam555 said..
Glide Extension kits with Reg are for the glide fuselage ie long(81cm) one.

Rs flight kits are for the short fuselage ie original pink 70+ cm one

i have made and trialled a kit that converts the short one to a glide and this worked well as you'd expect but have been only made one of these

regards

Adam





First test today on the glide wind full.extension kit
Truly amazing how easy this kit makes gybes with the large front and small tail combo.
If you can't gybe well yet & are using NP glide wind then fast track the process with this kit
Contact WSP if you want one




segler
WA, 1225 posts
25 Jan 2020 1:31PM
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This is really nice work, but I am little bothered about why we users have to do stuff like this in the first place.

Pretty much everybody says that a longer fuselage contributes to better pitch stability, thus easier foiling. Assuming, of course that the wing and stab and location of the mast on the fuselage is all compatible and balanced.

So, why aren't the manufacturers coming out more with longer fuses for freeride foils? Yes, they have done this for race foils, certainly. Starboard, Moses, F4, and Loke come to mind, but pretty much only for race stuff.

I sometimes get the impression that there is some MeToo in this industry. You know, copy what Starboard and Slingshot did, and don't do your own R&D to figure out freeride geometries that make things more approachable with your brand.

I hope I'm wrong. But, dang it, if somebody wants a longer fuselage for their foil (pinkie in this case) they should be able to go out and just buy one. We all do this just fine for sails and boards and fins and booms and masts. Why not also foils?

All that said, yes, we are starting to see more modularity with more choices in the components. Goodness, look at all the choices offered by Slingshot now, for example. Some other brands, as well.

I hope this trend continues.

Some people might complain that this makes everything too complicated. But you know, we all did figure all this out with sails and boards and fins. We will figure it out with foils, too. The collective learning curve is major fun.

DB2
89 posts
28 Jan 2020 5:28AM
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Hi Segler,

I guess there is no wrong or right, as long as the foils performe. And even the pinkie does with the right trim and the right board and sail. It just doesn't fit into most sailors idea of a windfoil. My guess is, that Slingshot's high popularity is the easiness of their 2019 windfoil set, combined with the flexibility of their switch-fuse. Yes you can put on a longer fuselage, but most likely that will change the trim of your setup. And as long as you are not racing, why would you want more stability? When I was looking for my first foil, the most confusing company was Starboard with all their different masts, fuselages and wings. Whatever you buy, you probably think, you bought the wrong things. We are at the beginning of a new windsurfing era, and most brands are still looking to find their way into foiling. And then there are different approaches and lots of combinations (board-foil-sail) that do not work to together as expected. But it is a great time and a lot of fun to explore new things.

Cheereo, David

segler
WA, 1225 posts
28 Jan 2020 11:57AM
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Yeah, David, I agree. And like I said: Some people might complain that this makes everything too complicated. But you know, we all did figure all this out with sails and boards and fins. We will figure it out with foils, too. The collective learning curve is major fun.

gorgesailor
497 posts
29 Jan 2020 1:48AM
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segler said..
Yeah, David, I agree. And like I said: Some people might complain that this makes everything too complicated. But you know, we all did figure all this out with sails and boards and fins. We will figure it out with foils, too. The collective learning curve is major fun.


There is also Tooling & R&D cost to consider. Too much variety is VERY inefficient. I rather think NP should have got it right the first time.

WhiteofHeart
739 posts
29 Jan 2020 4:01AM
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A longer fuse not only increases stability but also increases power, which might not be what you want, there is different ways to approach this problem.

The pryde fuselage is too short, we know, you know, they know, dont know why they didnt do anything. You also feel it in the foils balance.

That being said, some foils, like the AFS for example has quite short distance between the frontwing and backwing, but is one of the most stable out there. There is more too it than just the fuselage length.

I think for the pryde alu the fuselage length might even be one of the more minor problems, the very small and liftless wings, and the fact that the power is too far back are a bigger part of the stability problem than the fuse. My experience was the main trouble was sideways stability (which is wingspan) and the fact that you have to go very fast before it becomes stable and that you loose lift and stability very fast when you decrease speed (surface area & profile).

I didnt find the pryde exessively hard longitudinally, especially compared to what was on the market at the time they came out. A bigger stab would have made a huge difference on longitudinal stability, except that that would also mean increasing frontwing size (but be real, its about 650cm2, so....)

As a comparison, last years F-One had a 76cm (which I believe is similar to the pryde) fuselage including the front and backwing, but was a very very stable foil (with a stab nearly twice as big). Making the fuselage 84cm front to tip this year really only improved the balance point of the power, but the increase in longitudinal stability was minimal, probably because that was already very good!


P.s., especially extending the fuselage to the back so powerincrease would be minimal doesnt improve much in terms of stability, you are not standing on the back wing, but on the moment between the mast and frontwing.

Ian K
WA, 3969 posts
29 Jan 2020 6:54AM
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WhiteofHeart said..
A longer fuse not only increases stability but also increases power, which might not be what you want,

What do you mean by "power" in this context?

Maddlad
WA, 664 posts
29 Jan 2020 9:11AM
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I'd say he means the lift the foil generates by having a longer fuselage Ian. :)

Ian K
WA, 3969 posts
29 Jan 2020 9:28AM
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Maddlad said..
I'd say he means the lift the foil generates by having a longer fuselage Ian. :)





Well once you're up and going all foils are in balance with gravity, so, apart from minor contributions depending on the sail's inclination, they are all generating the same lift.

I can't see how a longer fuselage contributes much to that equation? (other than allowing you to run less negative lift at the tail)

(I'm pretty sure this is just a terminology difference, hopefully the terminology used by the customers settles down soon and we'll all understand what everybody else is thinking. I've understood that when windsurfers use the term "powerful" fin and "powerful" sail they are referring to those that generate more lift at a given speed than others of the same area. )

segler
WA, 1225 posts
29 Jan 2020 1:46PM
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People keep getting this confused.

It is the front wing, and only the front wing, that determines the AMOUNT of lift. What the fuselage accomplishes is to locate WHERE this lift is located.

When people say that a long racing fuselage is more powerful, all it means is that the WHERE of the lift is further forward of the strut, thus requiring the rider to weight body and feet further forward. Simple. You can get the same result by simply moving ANY foil further forward with such things as tracks or power plates.

The reason it feels more powerful is that the rider has to work more to balance this further forward location of lift. Also, using bigger sails for racing adds much more mast base pressure to balance the front wing.



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"Neil Pryde Ali (Pinkie) modifications" started by Adam555