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Replacing a sunken rig: new rig or a foil? help!

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Created by gbm91 5 months ago, 24 Jan 2019
gbm91
VIC, 20 posts
24 Jan 2019 2:50PM
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Hi everyone,

Allow me to set the scene:

Last saturday I was crusing around Port Philip Bay on my F2 XS Large (125L) with a 7.6 RRD Fire.
Great Session until... Mast pin broke.
Sail boat came to rescue me.
Rig sank.

Now that I have come to terms with the loss of my biggest (and much loved) rig, with a 1-month old boom on it, I'm considering options other than replacing it. I am thinking that to sail in the lighter wind range, I could get a foil instead of a new rig.

All my sails (6.7, 5.7, 4.7, 4.2 (the % size spacing is incorrect but I manage well with it)) now rig on the same boom and I have all the masts to suit.

Now, I don't have a big budget (want to spend as little as possible), so I was thinking about the NP Alu foil. Seen a couple for $500 in classifieds.
The issue is that these foils are deep tuttle!

My F2 XS is standard tuttle but is 80cm wide which seems like a good width for foiling.
A conversion to deep tuttle would cost around $300. So that's a minimum of $800 to spend which is comparable to a decent second-hand rig. I only just got this board a month ago for $450 + $150 shipping. So as you can see costs are adding up!

I also I have an old F2 Course Race Large which is deep tuttle but 68cm wide.
From what I have read, the F2 CR may be too narrow for the NP foil.
I'm also concerned about the board breaking as the construction is VERY fragile (but very light)!

Another option is to find a foil that fits standard tuttle boxes and has a flange but I don't see any on the more affordable end of the spectrum.

What does the internet think about using the F2 CR with a NP Foil?

Thanks

Gabriel

BSN101
WA, 1622 posts
24 Jan 2019 12:57PM
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Get a mate to scuba and retrieve the rig?

gbm91
VIC, 20 posts
24 Jan 2019 3:06PM
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BSN101 said..
Get a mate to scuba and retrieve the rig?


I've posted on the Melbourne Diving facebook group and there wasn't much interest despite offering a $200 reward.

I also don't know exactly where it went down.

seanhogan
3047 posts
24 Jan 2019 1:53PM
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I guess if your lightwind sail was 7.6 you mustn't be too heavy, but I'll still ask, what's your weight ?

The np foil is quite hard (read impossible under 12 knts) to get going for big blokes.
It's harder to control (liftwise) than most other foils, due to its flat front wing
That said it's fast. (that's the only nice thing I have to say about it ) Oh yes and it's pink ! (this I like !)

re the F2 a guy here has been using the same board quite a lot with a manta foil with no dramas.
It long, so brutal touch downs could hurt it. The space between rear staps is good enough for foiling.

your other board would be sweet for foiling ! shame for the tuttle....

Windbot
83 posts
24 Jan 2019 3:34PM
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One thing you could look into is a Chinook PowerPlate. It allows you to use pedestal style foils with Tuttle, deep Tuttle or Powerbox finboxes without modifying your board. Here's a video I made a few months ago, early in my windfoiling career. I am using a Foil Works foil setup (Slingshot fwind1 clone) with a Tuttle PowerPlate on a 2009 Starboard Go that lends itself extremely well to foiling as does the 1997 twin cam Ezzy 5.5m in some of the shots. I go down to a 3.7m in some shots and the rig holds together nicely even when I don't.



Google "windance PowerPlate" for more info on the setup.

WhiteofHeart
127 posts
24 Jan 2019 4:18PM
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The pryde flies relatively late and works best with bigger sails, I wouldn't say ideal. F-One makes a foil with normal tuttle / flange, but it is ~1500? For alu / carbon wings.

maybe see if you can get a secondhand lokefoil envol from france, the head was designed to be cut to deeptuttle if needed. (Saw at the dotted line) and are about 900-1000? secondhand for a full carbon foil, and one of the stablest and best in light winds at that.

another good option would be the mantafoils freeride, it flies relatively early, is stable, very adaptable, they have an optional normal tuttlehead/loadplate and its very cheap!

i think foiling on the 68 wide would be a bad idea, everything works ofcourse, but it will be very hard to learn on.

Paducah
393 posts
25 Jan 2019 12:49AM
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I think Zeeko also do a regular tuttle head. Manta and Zeeko are two good options, imho, from what I've read.

gbm91
VIC, 20 posts
25 Jan 2019 8:16AM
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seanhogan said..
I guess if your lightwind sail was 7.6 you mustn't be too heavy, but I'll still ask, what's your weight ?

The np foil is quite hard (read impossible under 12 knts) to get going for big blokes.
It's harder to control (liftwise) than most other foils, due to its flat front wing
That said it's fast. (that's the only nice thing I have to say about it ) Oh yes and it's pink ! (this I like !)

re the F2 a guy here has been using the same board quite a lot with a manta foil with no dramas.
It long, so brutal touch downs could hurt it. The space between rear staps is good enough for foiling.

your other board would be sweet for foiling ! shame for the tuttle....


I'm 83kg.

7.6m gets me going from 15+ knots so not very light wind but it does make a considerable difference to the amount of times I can get on the water.

I agree with you on the colour of the NP foil I also like going fast so that is good.

I'll see if I can find the posts of the guy using the F2 Course Race for foiling

gbm91
VIC, 20 posts
25 Jan 2019 8:42AM
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Windbot said..
One thing you could look into is a Chinook PowerPlate. It allows you to use pedestal style foils with Tuttle, deep Tuttle or Powerbox finboxes without modifying your board. Here's a video I made a few months ago, early in my windfoiling career. I am using a Foil Works foil setup (Slingshot fwind1 clone) with a Tuttle PowerPlate on a 2009 Starboard Go that lends itself extremely well to foiling as does the 1997 twin cam Ezzy 5.5m in some of the shots. I go down to a 3.7m in some shots and the rig holds together nicely even when I don't.



Google "windance PowerPlate" for more info on the setup.


The Chinook Powerplate looks great but I'm surprised by how much it costs: $350

gbm91
VIC, 20 posts
25 Jan 2019 8:50AM
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WhiteofHeart said..
The pryde flies relatively late and works best with bigger sails, I wouldn't say ideal. F-One makes a foil with normal tuttle / flange, but it is ~1500? For alu / carbon wings.

maybe see if you can get a secondhand lokefoil envol from france, the head was designed to be cut to deeptuttle if needed. (Saw at the dotted line) and are about 900-1000? secondhand for a full carbon foil, and one of the stablest and best in light winds at that.

another good option would be the mantafoils freeride, it flies relatively early, is stable, very adaptable, they have an optional normal tuttlehead/loadplate and its very cheap!

i think foiling on the 68 wide would be a bad idea, everything works ofcourse, but it will be very hard to learn on.


The Manta foil does look like a good option from a compatibility and price perspective. Thanks for the info.

Re the 68 wide: that is my concern

seanhogan
3047 posts
25 Jan 2019 7:38AM
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manta's come with a medium chinook tuttle, so it "could" fit your wide board, and they also come with a plate and adjustable stab.

They had toothing issues on the very first batch (2015) but since they seem quite solid and efficient. Much easier to control than the NP
Couple of mates have them over here and are happy with them.

Windbot
83 posts
25 Jan 2019 8:13AM
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Select to expand quote
gbm91 said..


Windbot said..
One thing you could look into is a Chinook PowerPlate. It allows you to use pedestal style foils with Tuttle, deep Tuttle or Powerbox finboxes without modifying your board. Here's a video I made a few months ago, early in my windfoiling career. I am using a Foil Works foil setup (Slingshot fwind1 clone) with a Tuttle PowerPlate on a 2009 Starboard Go that lends itself extremely well to foiling as does the 1997 twin cam Ezzy 5.5m in some of the shots. I go down to a 3.7m in some shots and the rig holds together nicely even when I don't.



Google "windance PowerPlate" for more info on the setup.




The Chinook Powerplate looks great but I'm surprised by how much it costs: $350



I agree, they aren't cheap. I picked mine up in the Oregon where they were $200USD (no tax thankfully). They are definitely a niche product made in the U.S. which adds to the cost. I justified the cost against the price of a dedicated windfoil board, as my board I use it with is a Craigslist find that cost me about a fifth of what I would have paid for a new dedicated windfoil board.

RAL INN
VIC, 2742 posts
26 Jan 2019 8:41AM
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The Zeeko choices




mm7
11 posts
27 Jan 2019 1:40AM
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also consider to change Euro-pin U joint to US Cup mechanical. like this isthmussailboards.com/chinook-1-bolt-mechanical-us.html
I use US Cup mechanical base for many years, no disconnections happen.

jamesf
NSW, 887 posts
27 Jan 2019 9:03PM
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Naish Thrust is a good beginner foil and available with Tuttle or Deep Tuttle heads.

If you use a foil on a non-foil board be aware there's always a risk that you'll damage the box. Sometimes it's ok, but you need to be prepared to take that risk.

WhiteofHeart
127 posts
28 Jan 2019 2:50AM
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jamesf said..
Naish Thrust is a good beginner foil and available with Tuttle or Deep Tuttle heads.

If you use a foil on a non-foil board be aware there's always a risk that you'll damage the box. Sometimes it's ok, but you need to be prepared to take that risk.



The naish has the power very far back. Would not be very well suited to any not foil specific boards, and I dare say some foil specific boards aswell. That foil is best matched with a (naish or F-One) board with double us-tracks.

i don't know the zeeko, think its fast, but also more expensive than the manta. The manta has a shallow tuttle option, so is not only available as a chinook tuttle as was said above and will fit in your board if you buy the correct configuration.

i'd recommend you the manta over the other options, mainly because of the importance of a good comination between foil and board. The manta will fit your board well, for most freeride foils your straps are too far forward.

Paducah
393 posts
28 Jan 2019 12:46PM
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I've seen a couple of recs here for the Manta. Which wing seems to be more popular, the Mono or regular windsurfing wing?

seanhogan
3047 posts
28 Jan 2019 3:19PM
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Mono isn't really the name of the wing but I see what you mean.
Tried both : the "mono" (ie all round wing) is okayish.... stable but not fast and despite it's width, not that easy to get out flying.
The windfoil wing is a beauty and takes off in a breeze and goes up to very good speeds. Defintely recommend this one (unless you plan to use it also for sup/surf foiling)

the arrow looks like a mean machine but I am still to see one.

29 Jan 2019 10:39PM
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gbm91 said..

seanhogan said..
I guess if your lightwind sail was 7.6 you mustn't be too heavy, but I'll still ask, what's your weight ?

The np foil is quite hard (read impossible under 12 knts) to get going for big blokes.
It's harder to control (liftwise) than most other foils, due to its flat front wing
That said it's fast. (that's the only nice thing I have to say about it ) Oh yes and it's pink ! (this I like !)

re the F2 a guy here has been using the same board quite a lot with a manta foil with no dramas.
It long, so brutal touch downs could hurt it. The space between rear staps is good enough for foiling.

your other board would be sweet for foiling ! shame for the tuttle....



I'm 83kg.

7.6m gets me going from 15+ knots so not very light wind but it does make a considerable difference to the amount of times I can get on the water.

I agree with you on the colour of the NP foil I also like going fast so that is good.

I'll see if I can find the posts of the guy using the F2 Course Race for foiling


Interesting reading about your cost savings, your F2 looks like a good board for foiling so lash out and put in the deep tuttle box then you'll find more foils to use.
My goal was to get foiling on the simplest rig and the AFS85 all carbon connected to the Naish 135lt 82 wide freerace with a DT conversion gives me that. I'm 97kgs and use the Sailworks Flyer foiling sail 6m in 15+ kts and the 7m up to 15 kts. I chose a carbon foil because of early lift, strength, weight and durability and its the choice for big blokes.

ZoltanL
ACT, 125 posts
30 Jan 2019 4:24AM
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See my post 'Old meets new' in Foiling Forum. You can use foil in Tuttle with simple collar you can make yourself for ~$20.










gbm91
VIC, 20 posts
30 Jan 2019 10:47AM
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ZoltanL said..
See my post 'Old meets new' in Foiling Forum. You can use foil in Tuttle with simple collar you can make yourself for ~$20.











Thanks.

I've checked it out and it does look like a good option as long as I can find a foil with a flange.

ZoltanL
ACT, 125 posts
30 Jan 2019 11:54AM
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gbm91 said..

ZoltanL said..
See my post 'Old meets new' in Foiling Forum. You can use foil in Tuttle with simple collar you can make yourself for ~$20.











Thanks.

I've checked it out and it does look like a good option as long as I can find a foil with a flange.


Yep... flange is key. Then just make a top flange and get the right length bolts, for Tuttle box usually 5-10 cm long. On the X-Fire I use stainless steel security head bolts from Bunnings, with matching countersunk washers. Can always use 2 or more washers as space fillers if your bolts are slightly too long and reach max depth and still have a bit sticking out the top. For my foil, I upgraded to M8 from M6 to increase strength - after snapping 2 rear bolts on the race board after 2 hours sailing fully powered in 20 knots with 8.5m sail.

martyj4
201 posts
31 Jan 2019 6:14AM
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Hey gbm91.
It's a tricky situation you're in. I suspect you might be able to pick up a second hand rig for a lot cheaper (and fewer fitting hassles) than you could potentially get a foil. However, foiling is a really good fun and slightly different way to sail.
It depends on what you want to do longer term with your sailing. If you're happy with the sailing you do now, then maybe the rig replacement is the way to go. If you find there's lots of days where you could nearly sail, but it's not quite enough wind to get planing, then maybe foiling is a worthwhile option?
If you can save, I'd suggest going for a foil, but make sure it's one that will fly you in light winds. A lot of us have found that we can sail in the lighter winds with 1.5-2m less sail area. I've gone from a windsurfing threshold of planing in about 12-14 knots, down to flying a foil in 10-12 knots. And there's LOTS of days here in Hobart where it blows 10 knots and you sit around waiting all arvo.

gbm91
VIC, 20 posts
31 Jan 2019 9:03AM
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martyj4 said..
Hey gbm91.
It's a tricky situation you're in. I suspect you might be able to pick up a second hand rig for a lot cheaper (and fewer fitting hassles) than you could potentially get a foil. However, foiling is a really good fun and slightly different way to sail.
It depends on what you want to do longer term with your sailing. If you're happy with the sailing you do now, then maybe the rig replacement is the way to go. If you find there's lots of days where you could nearly sail, but it's not quite enough wind to get planing, then maybe foiling is a worthwhile option?
If you can save, I'd suggest going for a foil, but make sure it's one that will fly you in light winds. A lot of us have found that we can sail in the lighter winds with 1.5-2m less sail area. I've gone from a windsurfing threshold of planing in about 12-14 knots, down to flying a foil in 10-12 knots. And there's LOTS of days here in Hobart where it blows 10 knots and you sit around waiting all arvo.



Yup I'm thinking it may be the case as only the Neilpryde foils are cheap. But they will require larger sails which I don't currently have!
Plus the deep tuttle issue.

My largest sail is now a 6.7m. With a foil that works well in light wind I would assume it could be equivalent to windsurfing with a sail around 8.2m - 8.7m. Which coincidentally is the size range I would be looking to get a rig in (8.4 is the ideal size as it is 25% larger than the 6.7).

With some shopping around and patience I agree that I could probably find a mast, sail and boom for less than a foil but with what is available at the moment it seems it would be about even. I don't mind older kit (love a bargain) but then finding a compatible mast in the right size can be a pain. Larger bargain booms are also hard to come by.

Plus I'm quite enjoying only having one boom and one less sail and mast to carry around. I dream of a minimalist quiver: One foil board (10-20 knots), one FSW board (20+ knots), three sails, one boom, one mast...

WhiteofHeart
127 posts
31 Jan 2019 5:43PM
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gbm91 said..


martyj4 said..
Hey gbm91.
It's a tricky situation you're in. I suspect you might be able to pick up a second hand rig for a lot cheaper (and fewer fitting hassles) than you could potentially get a foil. However, foiling is a really good fun and slightly different way to sail.
It depends on what you want to do longer term with your sailing. If you're happy with the sailing you do now, then maybe the rig replacement is the way to go. If you find there's lots of days where you could nearly sail, but it's not quite enough wind to get planing, then maybe foiling is a worthwhile option?
If you can save, I'd suggest going for a foil, but make sure it's one that will fly you in light winds. A lot of us have found that we can sail in the lighter winds with 1.5-2m less sail area. I've gone from a windsurfing threshold of planing in about 12-14 knots, down to flying a foil in 10-12 knots. And there's LOTS of days here in Hobart where it blows 10 knots and you sit around waiting all arvo.





Yup I'm thinking it may be the case as only the Neilpryde foils are cheap. But they will require larger sails which I don't currently have!
Plus the deep tuttle issue.

My largest sail is now a 6.7m. With a foil that works well in light wind I would assume it could be equivalent to windsurfing with a sail around 8.2m - 8.7m. Which coincidentally is the size range I would be looking to get a rig in (8.4 is the ideal size as it is 25% larger than the 6.7).

With some shopping around and patience I agree that I could probably find a mast, sail and boom for less than a foil but with what is available at the moment it seems it would be about even. I don't mind older kit (love a bargain) but then finding a compatible mast in the right size can be a pain. Larger bargain booms are also hard to come by.

Plus I'm quite enjoying only having one boom and one less sail and mast to carry around. I dream of a minimalist quiver: One foil board (10-20 knots), one FSW board (20+ knots), three sails, one boom, one mast...



I have a ****ton of gear, but with my 92L foilboard, a 4.9/3.8/3.0 I can sail from 10 to well over 45 knots. Add a small waveboard and I think I could hold on in over 55 kts hahaha. With 3 frontwings the 3 sails feel like 9 sails in range.

Paducah
393 posts
31 Jan 2019 9:53PM
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WhiteofHeart is on to something buried in his comment. If you go with a foil that has a quiver of wings available - you don't have to buy them all now - you get to expand your overall quiver on the cheap. For me, it's easier if I'm on a 6.7 and overpowered on a 1000cm2 wing to come back and change wings than change sails. With a 1000cm2, I can foil in 8-10 kts but because I'm smaller, it gets to be a handful around 15-17 kts. With an 800, I can be good in up to 22ish kt gusts. At that point, I can go regular slalom or freeride board or go to a seriously smaller sail on a foil.

And, yes, a 6.7 after you have some time on the water can easily equal something 2 meters bigger and with the appropriate wing, perhaps more.

Last bit (the sales pitch): With a 6.7 and a foil, you'll be absolutely looking forward to a 10-15 day. For a lot of us, that's pretty ho-hum on a regular board and 7.5 (or 9.5 for that matter).

MartyD
NSW, 10 posts
17 Mar 2019 3:34PM
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seanhogan said..
Mono isn't really the name of the wing but I see what you mean.
Tried both : the "mono" (ie all round wing) is okayish.... stable but not fast and despite it's width, not that easy to get out flying.
The windfoil wing is a beauty and takes off in a breeze and goes up to very good speeds. Defintely recommend this one (unless you plan to use it also for sup/surf foiling)

the arrow looks like a mean machine but I am still to see one.


Hey mate, can you show a pic of the windfoil wing you're referring to? Thanks

Peter Hands
VIC, 59 posts
17 Mar 2019 5:07PM
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Today on the Bay around 10-12 knots looked ideal foiling day, pity I couldnt get out ...
At 92+kg would have used my Hyperglide 9.0 with Starboard race foil
If 6.7 will be your biggest sail, you will need a bit more wind and/or an early flying foil
Ignore the 4.7 in 6 knots propaganda, it isnt real life unless you are a flyweight pumping god!
Foiling is fantastic, give some demo gear a try at the shops to help you decide

joe windsurf
1459 posts
20 Mar 2019 2:46AM
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how long can batman foil
before the arms get tired ??

seanhogan
3047 posts
20 Mar 2019 5:42AM
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MartyD said..

Hey mate, can you show a pic of the windfoil wing you're referring to? Thanks


this one :
www.mantafoils.com/e-shop/Manta-MONO-windfoil-freeride-front-wing-Orange-with-cover-p99629652
sorry hadn't seen your post



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"Replacing a sunken rig: new rig or a foil? help!" started by gbm91