Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Rider skill or foil? - carving

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Created by Dip916 Two weeks ago, 7 Feb 2024
Dip916
WA, 101 posts
7 Feb 2024 12:42PM
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Hi - I'm after some advice, do I need to either improve my skills, or change foil, or something else......?

I have an M_Oz custom foil board (love it!) and am using the Patrik 1100 front wing. I'm happy enough riding in straight lines and am just getting used to this combination for foiling gybes, having progressed from a Slingshot Wizard and i76 foil last season.

What I'm struggling with is freestyle carving and turns. If I slow right down (really de-power and wait for speed to drop away), I can ride a small swell or wind-wave with some confidence and bear away / carve back upwind fairly hard without incident. If I try this going too fast, the bear-away is fine but turning back upwind gets out of control and I can't keep the foil down, or it rolls the board to windward un-controllably. Having the extra power from riding the wave and now being on a broad reach also doesn't help with the speed and its effect on turning back upwind.

Is there something I need to be doing differently, or is this a case of getting too fast for the size of wing? I have seen quite a few others with riding styles that I'm trying to get to (thats you 2keen and Azymuth) are using a 900 or so foil, but will that change anything or just allow carving to be done at a higher overall speed?

All advice welcome and appreciated.
Further background - I'm in Perth so it's usually pretty windy (>18kn) when I'm foiling, so using a 4.5 - 3.7m sail most of the time.

John340
QLD, 3030 posts
7 Feb 2024 3:23PM
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Dip916 said..
Hi - I'm after some advice, do I need to either improve my skills, or change foil, or something else......?

I have an M_Oz custom foil board (love it!) and am using the Patrik 1100 front wing. I'm happy enough riding in straight lines and am just getting used to this combination for foiling gybes, having progressed from a Slingshot Wizard and i76 foil last season.

What I'm struggling with is freestyle carving and turns. If I slow right down (really de-power and wait for speed to drop away), I can ride a small swell or wind-wave with some confidence and bear away / carve back upwind fairly hard without incident. If I try this going too fast, the bear-away is fine but turning back upwind gets out of control and I can't keep the foil down, or it rolls the board to windward un-controllably. Having the extra power from riding the wave and now being on a broad reach also doesn't help with the speed and its effect on turning back upwind.

Is there something I need to be doing differently, or is this a case of getting too fast for the size of wing? I have seen quite a few others with riding styles that I'm trying to get to (thats you 2keen and Azymuth) are using a 900 or so foil, but will that change anything or just allow carving to be done at a higher overall speed?

All advice welcome and appreciated.
Further background - I'm in Perth so it's usually pretty windy (>18kn) when I'm foiling, so using a 4.5 - 3.7m sail most of the time.



Check out Azymuth's video "Follow Cam", especially when he is following the guy on the Predator and red Severne sail. When bearing off he encouraging him to really turn down wind when going down the face of the wave, this washes off speed and really helps with the turn back up wind. If your foiling out on the turn back upwind, really concentrate on getting your weight forward during this maneuver. If you can either move your front foot strap one hole forward, or foil mast back or sail mast base forward this will help too.

azymuth
WA, 1949 posts
7 Feb 2024 6:42PM
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John340 said..
Check out Azymuth's video "Follow Cam", especially when he is following the guy on the Predator and red Severne sail. When bearing off he encouraging him to really turn down wind when going down the face of the wave, this washes off speed and really helps with the turn back up wind. If your foiling out on the turn back upwind, really concentrate on getting your weight forward during this maneuver. If you can either move your front foot strap one hole forward, or foil mast back or sail mast base forward this will help too.





That's Bill on the Severne
John340 - your advice seems spot-on to me

Paducah
2440 posts
7 Feb 2024 8:21PM
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Freeride on a similar size wing. John340's advice is spot on. I don't typically have issues carving back up that are noticeable so I was racking my brain on what might be going on. This may or may not apply to you -with a higher boom height 5-7cm higher than where I'd put the boom for freeride fin, it's easier to hang down on the boom especially with the front hand and pressure the mast base while driving back upwind. Even if you boom is already up, I find that's an easy way to get "weight forward" as he said above.

Dip916
WA, 101 posts
7 Feb 2024 8:50PM
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I'll give the boom height a lift. I do have it lower for foiling than I do for fin as I'm standing more upright, so not hanging off the boom at all.
Is the primary benefit of a small wing (eg 900) just going to be higher speed? In 20-25 knots with a 3.7m sail it's still feathered most of the time so as to keep the 1100 foil at controllable speed for turns and free-riding. I can definitely go faster with the 1100 in a straight line, but it starts to get a bit wild beyond about 16-18 knots boardspeed.

2keen
WA, 334 posts
7 Feb 2024 9:39PM
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Select to expand quote
Dip916 said..
Hi - I'm after some advice, do I need to either improve my skills, or change foil, or something else......?

I have an M_Oz custom foil board (love it!) and am using the Patrik 1100 front wing. I'm happy enough riding in straight lines and am just getting used to this combination for foiling gybes, having progressed from a Slingshot Wizard and i76 foil last season.

What I'm struggling with is freestyle carving and turns. If I slow right down (really de-power and wait for speed to drop away), I can ride a small swell or wind-wave with some confidence and bear away / carve back upwind fairly hard without incident. If I try this going too fast, the bear-away is fine but turning back upwind gets out of control and I can't keep the foil down, or it rolls the board to windward un-controllably. Having the extra power from riding the wave and now being on a broad reach also doesn't help with the speed and its effect on turning back upwind.

Is there something I need to be doing differently, or is this a case of getting too fast for the size of wing? I have seen quite a few others with riding styles that I'm trying to get to (thats you 2keen and Azymuth) are using a 900 or so foil, but will that change anything or just allow carving to be done at a higher overall speed?

All advice welcome and appreciated.
Further background - I'm in Perth so it's usually pretty windy (>18kn) when I'm foiling, so using a 4.5 - 3.7m sail most of the time.


I'm going with time on water
Sounds like if you wash off some speed you can bear away and carve back upwind comfortably. With time on water you will get more comfortable doing this with more speed and more power.
My advice would be to rig on the side of underpowered rather than overpowered and really concentrate on your rig shift. Bear away extend the front arm and swing rig back

Craving back upwind push out with the back and really swing the rig forward and inboard. This will shift your weight forward which others have mentioned

Being overpowered on the foil compounds any mistakes you make, don't be afraid of small sails

Hess
240 posts
8 Feb 2024 4:00AM
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Interesting discussion and I am not sure what I can add to the great advise already given.
Building on the time on the water thyme; if you are not doing so already you might want to try carving up wind and downwind on a broad reach on flat water. Starting with smaller carves and building to bigger "snappier" carves. This might help you get a better feel for the things folks mentioned above including how much to and when to sheet in and hang on the sail and how much front foot pressure to use.
Hope it helps

azuli
QLD, 328 posts
8 Feb 2024 1:15PM
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I was using the 1100cm Patrik/Simmer foil on a SS Wizard 105 this morning in 18kn wind and did not have any issue with foil out on upwind turns although found it easier having the back foot out of strap and in the centre of the board to help initiate the turn.
It is only my second time out on this foil and board but have plenty of ToW wave sailing and foiling on bigger racier kit (90+cm boards and 900cm foils).
I was using similar technique to upwind wave riding in cross-on conditions sheeting in the sail on the top turn.
I've just added another mast track to the wizard to get the mast base further back, and am still playing with footstrap positions to get best balance. Mast base was set 90cm from front tuttle bolt.
The 1100cm stall speed appears to be about 1 knot slower than my 920cm race foil and feels quite nice in turns.

BSN101
WA, 2226 posts
8 Feb 2024 12:41PM
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I carve a little and swell ride and on patrik foils so my thought is that 1100 is maybe a bit big if you are getting good speed. How are you at top speed control in straight line? I use 900 or 700/750 patrik wings, 190 stab. I usually sail across deep and high into the wind, all over the place, 5.6-7.4 sails and 20-60km sessions

Taavi
192 posts
8 Feb 2024 3:27PM
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Get your weight low, and really drive the foil through the turn with your legs. And while carving the foil release the excess power from the sail by sheeting out with your back hand. Think of it as a top turn in wave windsurfing, except for finding out the limits of your foil (and how far you can push it) you don't have to do it in the waves. I'd say it's much easier to learn if you eliminate one unnecessary variable (the waves) and practice the hard carving turns on flat water first. A wave is just an additional power source, and with a foil you don't need the waves for learning. Instead, you can gradually tighten and then widen the turning radius - that would have the same effect as making the turn on a wave. Everything you learn on flat water that way translates directly into riding in waves.


Dip916
WA, 101 posts
10 Feb 2024 9:53AM
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Thanks for the tips everyone. I've got a few more things to try on the water now, and TOW is also important. Have just changed jobs, so now have 9 day fortnight and and early start / finish every day. That'll make a difference!

Dip916
WA, 101 posts
13 Feb 2024 10:48AM
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Taavi said..
Get your weight low, and really drive the foil through the turn with your legs. And while carving the foil release the excess power from the sail by sheeting out with your back hand. Think of it as a top turn in wave windsurfing, except for finding out the limits of your foil (and how far you can push it) you don't have to do it in the waves. I'd say it's much easier to learn if you eliminate one unnecessary variable (the waves) and practice the hard carving turns on flat water first. A wave is just an additional power source, and with a foil you don't need the waves for learning. Instead, you can gradually tighten and then widen the turning radius - that would have the same effect as making the turn on a wave. Everything you learn on flat water that way translates directly into riding in waves.




Thanks Taavi - the sheeting out trick works great. Sort of the opposite to normal when you bring the rig back and sheet in to turn a board into the wind.

Spent lots of time yesterday on the river carving wiggly paths. It's amazing the difference it makes. Also put the boom up.



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"Rider skill or foil? - carving" started by Dip916