We've come full circle once again

Thanks Paducah!
It interesting. I can't argue the good points of Tuttle, only 2 bolts, lighter and less drag when the board is in the water. Those are just facts. Are they most important details for all of us, that's grayer.
PWA is still Tuttle.
Patrick talks about stiffness a lot with his Aeon set ups but chooses Tuttle. I think with the ever-smaller wings they ride the stiffness is good enough and drag is the priority.
Adrian at Axis is also focused on stiffness and says Tuttle is not the answer because the foil wants to be thicker at the board connection than the Tuttle is. Makes sense right the biggest loads are at the connection to the board.
Intuitively from a structural point of view, I like a tapered composite mast with a thicker top and molded in plate. With my ever-increasing front wing size, I need all the stiffness I can get, and I am considering a used Axis fatty mast to gain the added stiffness of a monocoque plate and tapered thickness.
I have thought about recessing the track, because as a garage shaper I can. I typically don't move the mast once I have things dialed in. Just make the top of the plate flush with the bottom of the board.
The other thought I have is for the foil builders. Keep the Tuttle conceptually, just make it thicker so the top of the mast can be thicker.

The slingshot rake adjustment shims are puzzling, for it to work it has to ignore the importance of the full contact wedging at the front and back walls. Perhaps they are just for fore and aft location, such that if you are not full forward or full aft you use two shims one each side of the mast. We all just associate shims with rake, maybe they should call them spacers.

haha amazing the innovation 😂

Tuttle is good for racing and longer fuselages, but for WWF / foil style I need to move/adjust foil position. Btw, durable foil Tuttle box is as heavy or more vs double tracks. I saw about 6 month ago one company was designing adjustable 'tuttle' box, now that would be interesting to me if adapted by all, but that's a big 'if'

Slingshots solution is using an adjustable Tuttle box and because of the adjustability there are holes and insets to allow use of up to 5 bolts for attachment.

Is adjustable Tuttle the optimum solution? Probability not, but it is superior to the plate system mechanically and hydrodynamicly as well as allowing compatability with existing Tuttle foils like f4, mikes lab, z, and patrik.

tuttlebox.com/pages/about

tuttlebox.com/products/adjustable-tuttle-box-6-thick-optimized-for-mikeslab-masts?variant=53208889262398

This is so depressingly stupid, and where common sense hits the economic reality

OF COURSE a huge 4 point plate is way stiffer (all angles) than a two point bad fit tuttle box with lots of play by defuault. Adjustable tuttle box is just a proof of how worthless any non-adjustable set up is for real quivers, where different boards and wings combine into different sweet spots. This was the reason slingshot ditched the tuttle in the first place, no holding back.

And how are u gonna stabilize these massive vertical forces in a tuttle? Plastic shims? More bolts? Worthless, not gonna work.


wrt to friction - well if you can hide a foildrive battery in the board now, u can for sure snug in the dimensions of a proper plate. Or u can just ignore it because it doesn’t matter that mich. Alla foil masts should look like slingshot phantasm wide, still as solid as it gets around the plate (fuse connection could be beefed up though)

instead, a real improvement would be to set the box angle properly at 2 degree default rake - as this anyhow is what riders need (for wing and windsurfing)

Mark _australia said..
^^^ I agree with a lot of that.


I suspect it to be a Gorge-oriented decision perhaps as all the wingers here in Oz use plate systems. There’s about 1-5% at a guess who use a Tuttle mast as they’re racing. So whilst slingshot might think a board that suits Mike’s and chewy foil systems are just great I really dunno about the rest of the world thinking that. They want plate n tracks.


more windsurfers than wingers use Tuttle as it’s used for IQ and slalom …. but there’s still as much or more on plate n tracks. But slingshot pulled out of windsurf so why would they care.


seems to me they’re just smashing out ideas and videos as the winger market is saturated and they want something different every 6-12mths. Reinvented the wheel in the process.

Definitely reinventing and questioning assumptions everywhere. What they are working on is a reoptimization of the overall system. New board shape with Ken Adgate and Kevin 2e, adjustable Tuttle from Mike McKinley, new mast design and new high aspect foils from Bobby. The overall package should be something special.

Board will also be available in track form for those so inclined.

The Tuttle is definitely superior from a mechanical prospective. The transition from the mast to the plate is a total mess from a composite design point of view ( why do you think the cedrus mast uses an Al base plate) and the foil box tying the bottom of the board to the deck gives a stiffer, more secure connection. Hydrodynamically, while the testers are in agreement that it is better, simulation is problematic due the turbulence in this area causing convergence issues for the CFD.

Go Tuttle or go home....

Look, Tuttle is fin-solution, to deal with side forces
there is very little of this in a foil, the force is vertical
doesn’t matter if the box goes through the deck, the pressure point is just in front of mast/deck attachment area
what u need is a pedestal solution. We see that implementation in mast/fuse connections. Starboard even went all in with 4 bolts. But those forces are way smaller than what u get on the deck in front of the mast.

u can ride a foil on a power box if you have a plate (i did it for years). It will hold until the sandwhich deformes.

it’s tricky to scale a proper pedestal solution, I get it, and garage factories might not be up to the challenge. You likely make less money vs tuttle where everything is in place. Doesn’t change the fact that its crappy solution that doesn’t even meet the basic user requirement of trimming your setup.


if u cant move your foil, u have to move your foostraps instead. I actually have pals considering that effort on the beach..

If u ride one board, one wing and one sail (one spot?) - well I won’t argue. But that’s not really a quiver 😆
and you only need adjustability if you change something

I want the flying carpet experience, hate it when you lose stability underfoot. Doesn’t matter if i chase knots or work on upwind 360, I want to be able to push down on that foil and step on it. And stay pitch stable. I put the cl just behind the front straps, a little more behind if there are braking waves

what really killed the windfoil game was the idea that tuttle was good enough. While wingers got tracks and developed, windfoilers struggled with the front wing locked just in front of the back strap, unable cruise, gybe or climb upwind. Useless gear, total waste of money. No wonder they went to winging.

Heres a link to a pod cast that just dropped, it features Trent Carter and Edo Tanas.
These two have been testing and working with all parties involved in Project Drag.
I would add this is not aimed at the wind foil market.
It's intended for Parawing winging open.spotify.com/episode/5xnHpA73TbSwo0yDIcw7Dg?si=Z0_vnFq2SRSjVFu40i3dRQ
Grant

Gwarn said..

sailortrash said..
If u ride one board, one wing and one sail (one spot?) - well I won’t argue. But that’s not really a quiver 😆
and you only need adjustability if you change something

I want the flying carpet experience, hate it when you lose stability underfoot. Doesn’t matter if i chase knots or work on upwind 360, I want to be able to push down on that foil and step on it. And stay pitch stable. I put the cl just behind the front straps, a little more behind if there are braking waves

what really killed the windfoil game was the idea that tuttle was good enough. While wingers got tracks and developed, windfoilers struggled with the front wing locked just in front of the back strap, unable cruise, gybe or climb upwind. Useless gear, total waste of money. No wonder they went to winging.

I ride many spots with this set up as long as theirs 15 knots+++ All over the Sf bay area and Baja Mexico. Yes it is a quiver just a easy one...

most people moved over to wing because they are wimps....

I have the Magic Carpet Ride....

I want some!

As I understand it, the IQFoil Deep Tuttle box has a pretty short lifespan under racing conditions. I've heard four boards a year is about the minimum for a serious Olympic campaign. For recreational use it's plenty strong of course.