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Starboard Slalom 650 Wing

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Created by WillyWind 9 months ago, 22 Apr 2021
WillyWind
256 posts
22 Apr 2021 2:14AM
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Does anybody have this front wing? I would like to hear some comments about it. BTW, starboard page doesn't say anything about it and I haven't been able to find any info online (besides few starboard videos from tear riders saying when They use them).

LeeD
3458 posts
22 Apr 2021 2:55AM
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I apologize now. I don't have this foil, but I am 72 kgs, waiting for wind.
As you probably know, very few foilers use small foils.
I happen to use my Naish 600 foil about 5 out of 6 foiling days. Best in +14 knot breeze, able to glide thru 10 knot lulls with a 5 meter sail.
I DO use my 1220 foil, but only on 5-13 knot days, and to remind myself WHY I normally use the 600.
Most days, in around 8-17 knot days, I'm foiling with a handful of lighter weight foilers on their 1050/1550 foils...all on the same size sails and foiling up about the same time. All similar in skill level.
There ARE much more skilled foilers around, and they seem to use 1500 sq cm foils in those breezes.
To me, the light feel and glide of the 600 is why I always use it.
If the breeze does not exceed 14 in the max gusts, a bigger foil is recommended.

philsurfdude
18 posts
22 Apr 2021 6:18AM
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WillyWind said..
Does anybody have this front wing? I would like to hear some comments about it. BTW, starboard page doesn't say anything about it and I haven't been able to find any info online (besides few starboard videos from tear riders saying when They use them).


The 650 is very fast and easy to control.
i use 650/105+/255 -2 with 8,2 and smaller

725/115/255-2 with 8,2&9,0








WillyWind
256 posts
22 Apr 2021 7:49AM
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philsurfdude said..

WillyWind said..
Does anybody have this front wing? I would like to hear some comments about it. BTW, starboard page doesn't say anything about it and I haven't been able to find any info online (besides few starboard videos from tear riders saying when They use them).



The 650 is very fast and easy to control.
i use 650/105+/255 -2 with 8,2 and smaller

725/115/255-2 with 8,2&9,0









Thanks LeeD and Phil. Phil, what board do you use with it?

Based on what I was told by a starboard guy, the 650 pairs well with all fuselages. I have the 115+ and 95+. I live in a place with very gusty wind. When I use the 1000 I feel the 115+ is more comfortable than the 95+. I only care about having a wing less powerful than the 1000 because the 1000 becomes too lifty above 25mph winds (at least with my skill level). BTW, I know a smaller fuselage helps with lift.
I ordered a 650 because I think the 725 will overlap a little bit more with the 1000 than the 650.

philsurfdude
18 posts
22 Apr 2021 1:59PM
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WillyWind said..

philsurfdude said..


WillyWind said..
Does anybody have this front wing? I would like to hear some comments about it. BTW, starboard page doesn't say anything about it and I haven't been able to find any info online (besides few starboard videos from tear riders saying when They use them).




The 650 is very fast and easy to control.
i use 650/105+/255 -2 with 8,2 and smaller

725/115/255-2 with 8,2&9,0









Thanks LeeD and Phil. Phil, what board do you use with it?

Based on what I was told by a starboard guy, the 650 pairs well with all fuselages. I have the 115+ and 95+. I live in a place with very gusty wind. When I use the 1000 I feel the 115+ is more comfortable than the 95+. I only care about having a wing less powerful than the 1000 because the 1000 becomes too lifty above 25mph winds (at least with my skill level). BTW, I know a smaller fuselage helps with lift.
I ordered a 650 because I think the 725 will overlap a little bit more with the 1000 than the 650.


The 725 is very similar and close to the lift of the 800. But the 725 is much more faster. i use both wings with a Future Fly 187 Flying Camel slalom foil board.
Speeds over 30 knots a very easy to reach with this setup.

aeroegnr
434 posts
22 Apr 2021 11:10PM
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I'm still very new to the setup but the 900 with 255 (-2) and zero shim was a handful in 20-25mph gusts yesterday. Am also very curious about these smaller fronts on such days. So far I've been hitting 24-25 but that's primarily skill related not equipment so far.

WillyWind
256 posts
23 Apr 2021 1:39AM
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aeroegnr said..
I'm still very new to the setup but the 900 with 255 (-2) and zero shim was a handful in 20-25mph gusts yesterday. Am also very curious about these smaller fronts on such days. So far I've been hitting 24-25 but that's primarily skill related not equipment so far.


Are you using the 115 or 95 fuse? In gusty/choppy conditions (10-30 mph) I prefer the 115 plus, even though I have the 1000 wing (which I believe is very similar to the 900, maybe less speed but more upwind angle and lower take of speed by a smidge)

aeroegnr
434 posts
23 Apr 2021 1:55AM
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WillyWind said..

aeroegnr said..
I'm still very new to the setup but the 900 with 255 (-2) and zero shim was a handful in 20-25mph gusts yesterday. Am also very curious about these smaller fronts on such days. So far I've been hitting 24-25 but that's primarily skill related not equipment so far.



Are you using the 115 or 95 fuse? In gusty/choppy conditions (10-30 mph) I prefer the 115 plus, even though I have the 1000 wing (which I believe is very similar to the 900, maybe less speed but more upwind angle and lower take of speed by a smidge)


I've only used the 115plus so far. I've heard not a lot of people are using the 95 on IQFoil but (unverified).

WillyWind
256 posts
23 Apr 2021 2:33AM
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aeroegnr said..

WillyWind said..


aeroegnr said..
I'm still very new to the setup but the 900 with 255 (-2) and zero shim was a handful in 20-25mph gusts yesterday. Am also very curious about these smaller fronts on such days. So far I've been hitting 24-25 but that's primarily skill related not equipment so far.




Are you using the 115 or 95 fuse? In gusty/choppy conditions (10-30 mph) I prefer the 115 plus, even though I have the 1000 wing (which I believe is very similar to the 900, maybe less speed but more upwind angle and lower take of speed by a smidge)



I've only used the 115plus so far. I've heard not a lot of people are using the 95 on IQFoil but (unverified).


You should try the -0.5 or -1 shim for those conditions instead of the 0 (it worked for me)

aeroegnr
434 posts
24 Apr 2021 2:47AM
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WillyWind said..


You should try the -0.5 or -1 shim for those conditions instead of the 0 (it worked for me)



Went out earlier today with gusts hitting 20mph, -1 shim. Felt wayy more controllable than the other day. May have actually needed more like the -2, then. Now I will know better.

LeeD
3458 posts
28 Apr 2021 12:35AM
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Would anyone measure thickness of the 650?
I'm guessing my Naish 600 is superthick, therefore slow with lots of lift.
There are no dealers around who carry foils smaller than around 1050.
Thanks.

sunsetsailboards
232 posts
28 Apr 2021 12:40AM
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we can find a way for you to try my Moses W1000 which is sub 1kcm2.... need some windsurf fuselage and mast parts... currently attached to a 647mm kite fuselage

LeeD
3458 posts
28 Apr 2021 12:56AM
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Thanks, but way out of my possible price range.
I was thinking of buying another 600 for 200 bucks, peeling off the bottom, thinning it, then relapsing.
There is almost no way of remounting my 310 hi aspect stab for use as a front foil.

WillyWind
256 posts
28 Apr 2021 4:24AM
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I know that when windsurfing budget is tight every penny counts, but the 650 brand new costs "only" 350 US dollars.

WillyWind
256 posts
28 Apr 2021 4:28AM
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LeeD said..
Would anyone measure thickness of the 650?
I'm guessing my Naish 600 is superthick, therefore slow with lots of lift.
There are no dealers around who carry foils smaller than around 1050.
Thanks.


13mm

LeeD
3458 posts
28 Apr 2021 5:04AM
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Thanks.
A Naish 600 is 148.
I make 512 a month.

aeroegnr
434 posts
16 Nov 2021 3:11AM
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Went out a little bit today with the 9.0 HGO and 650 front on the 95+ fuselage.

The gusts were pretty wicked due to wind direction, probably ~20kts or so, and I was dealing with too much sail power.

I'm thinking about grabbing a 7.0 Hyperglide 4 for these kinds of conditions with that front. I don't like the feel of freeride sails on race foils, but want something more manageable when it's really going.

John340
QLD, 2482 posts
16 Nov 2021 6:09AM
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aeroegnr said..
Went out a little bit today with the 9.0 HGO and 650 front on the 95+ fuselage.

The gusts were pretty wicked due to wind direction, probably ~20kts or so, and I was dealing with too much sail power.

I'm thinking about grabbing a 7.0 Hyperglide 4 for these kinds of conditions with that front. I don't like the feel of freeride sails on race foils, but want something more manageable when it's really going.


A 7m Is still too big. I use a 5m wave sail in 15 to 20kts.

LeeD
3458 posts
16 Nov 2021 4:44AM
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Those small foils do need sustained, locked in power to fly stable and fast.
With my 1150, a 4.5 is plenty.
But with a hi aspect thin sectioned slalom foil, I think a couple more meters is needed. And, going a little bigger gives much more pitch stability needed with small ha foils.
Xtra weight is a good thing here.

boardsurfr
WA, 1516 posts
16 Nov 2021 4:54AM
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LeeD said..
Those small foils do need sustained, locked in power to fly stable and fast.

Maybe to fly fast, but not necessarily to fly stable. My best session on the 800 front wing (at ~200 lb) was with a 5.6 m freestyle sail in 15 knot averages. Although perhaps the reason the session was so good was that the water was much flatter the usual onshore chop we get at Kalmus, and the wind was steadier than the offshore wind there. Also, I usually work hard to find the lowest speed that a foil can be flown at, judging by comparing my speeds to what others report.

John340
QLD, 2482 posts
16 Nov 2021 6:59AM
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At the Tiberius PWA event Goyard consistently used small sails (6m) with small front wings (450m2)

LeeD
3458 posts
16 Nov 2021 5:25AM
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Wave sails are easiest, regardless of foil.
But day after day, in all wind and water, a bigger race sail works better with small hi aspect foils than a 2 meter smaller wave sail.
Easy is different than better.

aeroegnr
434 posts
16 Nov 2021 8:10AM
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John340 said..


aeroegnr said..
Went out a little bit today with the 9.0 HGO and 650 front on the 95+ fuselage.

The gusts were pretty wicked due to wind direction, probably ~20kts or so, and I was dealing with too much sail power.

I'm thinking about grabbing a 7.0 Hyperglide 4 for these kinds of conditions with that front. I don't like the feel of freeride sails on race foils, but want something more manageable when it's really going.




A 7m Is still too big. I use a 5m wave sail in 15 to 20kts.



It's a slalom race foil. Not a freeride foil. I'm going for speed and stability.

Problem is Starboard doesn't have guides for wind range for their foils and recommended sail sizes. I saw that Phantom did. I looked at their sizing charts for sails to get an idea of the appropriate size.







Awalkspoiled
213 posts
16 Nov 2021 10:11AM
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Today was pretty interesting, and sort of supports LeeD's easier/better analysis - Aeroegnr and I were on the same piece of water, wind gusting 12-20, both on 95cm fuselages, but he was on that huge 9.0 Severne and that tiny Starboard front wing, and I was on a little Aerotech 5.8 and a huge 1 meter wide 2000cm Taaroa front wing. Speeds when powered were surprisingly similar although obviously I had to do a lot more pumping in the lulls and had an easier time in the gusts. On his normal IQFoil setup he's typically significantly faster than I, and points much higher too, but today I felt like I could just about keep up because I was never overpowered and could drive the board without worrying. I think we both would have been happier on 7.0, just as he says, but by the time I had rerigged the wind was gone....

aeroegnr
434 posts
16 Nov 2021 10:33AM
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Awalkspoiled said..
Today was pretty interesting, and sort of supports LeeD's easier/better analysis - Aeroegnr and I were on the same piece of water, wind gusting 12-20, both on 95cm fuselages, but he was on that huge 9.0 Severne and that tiny Starboard front wing, and I was on a little Aerotech 5.8 and a huge 1 meter wide 2000cm Taaroa front wing. Speeds when powered were surprisingly similar although obviously I had to do a lot more pumping in the lulls and had an easier time in the gusts. On his normal IQFoil setup he's typically significantly faster than I, and points much higher too, but today I felt like I could just about keep up because I was never overpowered and could drive the board without worrying. I think we both would have been happier on 7.0, just as he says, but by the time I had rerigged the wind was gone....


Yeah when I was using the 650 and 95+ I couldn't get quite the same angles to the wind and was not fully sheeted in due to that. Once I switched to the 900/115+ it was a lot easier to spill power upwind without sheeting out.

I'm curious about the 650 with the 105+ and a right sized sail, as that seems to be the sweet spot for speed and control.

aeroegnr
434 posts
22 Nov 2021 4:18AM
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Today I tried 650 front with a 6.6 camless freerace and the 115+ fuse

Wind was getting to around 15 knots, maybe a little more. Definitely felt borderline underpowered. I'll keep testing with the sails I have to see how to push it over the speeds I've gotten with the 900. It doesn't feel stable until the board speed is closer to 20mph or so.

mmm13b
NSW, 29 posts
22 Nov 2021 9:44AM
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Q..where are theses foils and parts coming from ??
not from Australia so where. im after starboard foil parts too

LeeD
3458 posts
22 Nov 2021 8:05AM
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15 kt. is borderline with 6.6 even at 160lbs.
Especially with smaller stabs.
15 is solid at 160 lbs., 6.6, and 310 stab, but unstable with 210 stab.
Probably great with 450 stab.

Freeflight
49 posts
22 Nov 2021 8:09AM
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mmm13b said..
Q..where are theses foils and parts coming from ??
not from Australia so where. im after starboard foil parts too


Try glissup.fr in France

Jules67
NSW, 7 posts
23 Nov 2021 9:18PM
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Aeroengr, Bit late to the party on this but was struggling to get my Seabreeze login working. Apologies in advance for the monologue...

I have been using a modified Starboard GTR set up fro about a year now. 95 carbon mast, 95+fuse, 800 front wing and the 255-2 rear wing. I have the original JP135 Hydrofoil (heavier epoxy sandwich). I sail on Botany bay in anything from 14-15kn with an old 8.4m Maui TRX up to about 22kn plus gusts with a 5.6m. Before this set up I had an original slingshot aluminium foil (older blue wings) that maxed out at about 23knots and was pretty scary. On the GTR I got 24kn almost straight away and worked up to 26kn back in February. Since then, I have been playing with a whole bunch of adjustments over winter to increase speed.

Rear shims: from -2.0 to -0.5 (noting that the 255 stab is already -2);
Mast track position: as far forward as possible for a while, but now backed off slightly;
Footstraps: Removed rear footstraps (about 4 sessions) for easy weight shifting downwind to control flight height, but found I really struggled controlling the board on the reach with only the front strap, particularly in stronger winds where you want to angle the upwind rail. They are back on now;
Changed footstrap positions AND angles; I squared the front strap up to move my front heel forward for more frontwards pressure but then my foot was getting stuck in the strap during gybes (not pleasant trying to yank your foot out mid gybe - tends to launch the board in an unwanted direction (upwards, sideways ).
Harness: started with waist harness, but much prefer seat harness for me as it allows me to create more mast foot pressure to control ride height.
Boom height: higher is definitely better for me, with harness lines spread wider than normal and front strap slightly further forward. Again I find this helps with really hanging on the boom on downwind runs to get the weight into the mastfoot to control ride height and take the gusts through to the board without sheeting out.
In/out of rear strap: I have tried both. Out definitely a LOT less scary providing the ability to quickly weight shift when the board rises too quickly (and the ease of rapid dismount ) but I struggle to get as much power from the gusts through the mast foot so try to use both straps whenever possible.

So after all of this, I got up to 27.4kn about a month ago which was pleasing progression. However, the 800 wing does feel like it struggles to accelerate quickly at this speed. So I ordered the 650 wing and a 115++ fuse from France which arrived early last week. Theory is that I can use the 115++ with the 800 in lighter winds with smaller sails (rather than buy a larger 1000 front wing) although yet to test that combo. Tried the 650 wing/95+fuse/255-2 with -0.5shim last Thursday with Dieter in about 20-24kn NEer using a 6.2m Severne R8 - we both did max 2s of 29.5kn! The 650 is so much quicker to accelerate in gusts, but also way looser. A few scary breaches, swerves and catapults when heading more downwind, one of which left me upside down about 1m underwater . It felt like it preferred more broad reach with a bit of board angle to keep some pressure against the foil. My sailing style was Bouncing Dolphin. Seemed much harder to control ride height, although it was pretty gusty conditions, so now need to try different shim angles.

Just watched a video that suggested more down haul with slalom sails for downwind runs.

Can't wait to get out again and see what's next.

aeroegnr
434 posts
23 Nov 2021 7:18PM
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Jules67 said..
Aeroengr, Bit late to the party on this but was struggling to get my Seabreeze login working. Apologies in advance for the monologue...

I have been using a modified Starboard GTR set up fro about a year now. 95 carbon mast, 95+fuse, 800 front wing and the 255-2 rear wing. I have the original JP135 Hydrofoil (heavier epoxy sandwich). I sail on Botany bay in anything from 14-15kn with an old 8.4m Maui TRX up to about 22kn plus gusts with a 5.6m. Before this set up I had an original slingshot aluminium foil (older blue wings) that maxed out at about 23knots and was pretty scary. On the GTR I got 24kn almost straight away and worked up to 26kn back in February. Since then, I have been playing with a whole bunch of adjustments over winter to increase speed.

Rear shims: from -2.0 to -0.5 (noting that the 255 stab is already -2);
Mast track position: as far forward as possible for a while, but now backed off slightly;
Footstraps: Removed rear footstraps (about 4 sessions) for easy weight shifting downwind to control flight height, but found I really struggled controlling the board on the reach with only the front strap, particularly in stronger winds where you want to angle the upwind rail. They are back on now;
Changed footstrap positions AND angles; I squared the front strap up to move my front heel forward for more frontwards pressure but then my foot was getting stuck in the strap during gybes (not pleasant trying to yank your foot out mid gybe - tends to launch the board in an unwanted direction (upwards, sideways ).
Harness: started with waist harness, but much prefer seat harness for me as it allows me to create more mast foot pressure to control ride height.
Boom height: higher is definitely better for me, with harness lines spread wider than normal and front strap slightly further forward. Again I find this helps with really hanging on the boom on downwind runs to get the weight into the mastfoot to control ride height and take the gusts through to the board without sheeting out.
In/out of rear strap: I have tried both. Out definitely a LOT less scary providing the ability to quickly weight shift when the board rises too quickly (and the ease of rapid dismount ) but I struggle to get as much power from the gusts through the mast foot so try to use both straps whenever possible.

So after all of this, I got up to 27.4kn about a month ago which was pleasing progression. However, the 800 wing does feel like it struggles to accelerate quickly at this speed. So I ordered the 650 wing and a 115++ fuse from France which arrived early last week. Theory is that I can use the 115++ with the 800 in lighter winds with smaller sails (rather than buy a larger 1000 front wing) although yet to test that combo. Tried the 650 wing/95+fuse/255-2 with -0.5shim last Thursday with Dieter in about 20-24kn NEer using a 6.2m Severne R8 - we both did max 2s of 29.5kn! The 650 is so much quicker to accelerate in gusts, but also way looser. A few scary breaches, swerves and catapults when heading more downwind, one of which left me upside down about 1m underwater . It felt like it preferred more broad reach with a bit of board angle to keep some pressure against the foil. My sailing style was Bouncing Dolphin. Seemed much harder to control ride height, although it was pretty gusty conditions, so now need to try different shim angles.

Just watched a video that suggested more down haul with slalom sails for downwind runs.

Can't wait to get out again and see what's next.


Wow, very good info. You're moving!

I regularly seem to top out at 20-21kts on the 900 with my 9.0. Sounds like I'll need to use ny 5.8 or 6.6 in 20+ kts to take advantage of the 650. Sounds wild! I'm still excited/scared about that front.
I definitely set my camless with lots of downhaul when foiling now. Makes a huge difference. Somebody bought up the 4 cam slalom foil sail I was going to get...



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"Starboard Slalom 650 Wing" started by WillyWind