Guy Cribb says here:
www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf not to "close the slot" (rake the sail back so that the sail just about touches the rear of the board), as it's an outdated technique which doesn't work with modern sails.

Yet just about everyone who I see going fast has their mast raked back at a fairly obscene angle...

Who here closes the slot?

I am a closer! But, closing depends on the sail. With some new (race) sails you may de-power and (possibly) catch the foot in the water if closing too much Nothing better than the sail on top of you back foot toes

Pugs

Just try to close the slot, you will rarely succeed except in flat water.
My KA Koncept loves resting on my rear toes as they poke out thru the rear strap and power upwind.

But in the end you will be looking where you are going and doing what feels good.

best winds
Tony L

Bear in mind that sail designers are basing their profiles on the direction air flows across the sail at its optimum speed.

This is not a straight line from mast at 90 degrees, but more like in line with the foot of the sail. assuming a feeride sail that will be raked back to close the gap.

I dont tend to close the slot unless raking the sail back heading upwind or sailing overpowered even then I dont concentrate on closing it, it is just that position the sail moves to (I look at the pic on my web page, slot definately closed but I never try to achieve that).

I find closing the slot depowers the sail a little too much most of the time, I would rather suffer a little "this gust is going to kill me feeling" and be well powered once gust passes. I also believe that you should avoid laying the sail on the deck as it can unweight the mastfoot even if momentarily which is disasterous, sail held upright always tends to power the mastfoot.

Aside from that the cut of the sails are a little more different now, way back when pryde MKIII's and stuff were around the sails naturally moved to that position. Now with mast tracks even further back and sail foot sensibly cut to clear the chop it dosen't really feel natural (for my sailing style at least).

I think cribby is pretty spot on. Even pictures of Finian tend to show sail is held at a more exact trim level than slot closed and sheeted over/near the centreline.

quote:

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I find closing the slot depowers the sail a little too much most of the time.

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Wow Mark we agree on something.

hi nebbian,

i also find some of the guy cribb stuff a bit ambiguous.

you need to remember the old rules. lean the sail towards the back of the board turns the nose into the wind. lean the sail towards the front of the board turns the nose away from the wind.

so with that. if you want to sail high to windward (into the wind) at speed then you need to rake your sail back which closes the slot and swing your body weight towards the nose of the board through you hips while driving the fin with your back foot. if you spin out then you've driven the fin to much or lost to much spped by sailing to high. this technique will increse rail length in the water and give you more lift. you can also rail the board as well to assist.

to sail fast on a broard reach you need a more upright stance. depending on how broad you sail away from the wind depends on how upright you stand. also because you have more speed on a broad reach the fin creates more lift so you don't need to drive it as much.

in the finian photos,
www.sailing.org/default.asp?PID=16257
the wind is at diffent angles in the different photos. the photo in the middle is a high speed broad reach. the gap is not closed because of the sail angle to the wind. in the bottom right photo he is sailing more upwind. so the sail is raked back more. which will automatically close the gap more.

also notice the stance. in the bottom right photo you can see him railing the board, driving against the fin and swinging his boady weight forward. probably sailing back upwind to the start line. in the middle photo he is standing more upright blasting downwind. a true speed run. if you close the gap while on a broad reach then you will depower the sail.
most local spot sailing is done across the wind and not on a true broad reach. next time your out. bear away from the wind, stand more upright and watch yourself go. beware the catapult. then try the upwind technique to get back to where you started from. sailing across the wind will be somewhere in between the two. it is all about the centre of effort of the sail versus fin.

hope this helps.
justin.

Hi drjukka,

i don't sail 80-90's boards/sails and i sail faster than the wind. both mark and vando said that closing the slot depowers the sail. if you read what i said again you will see that i am also saying this and it appears that so are you. from what i wrote "if you close the gap while on a broad reach then you will depower the sail."

i stand behind what i said that the broadreach stance is more upright. this take the pressure off the fin and allows more control over the board.

i think basically we are saying the same thing. even you say "I ve seen some pretty quick sailors, sailing on a broad reach - almost 'closing the slot' with about 5-15 cm gap between board and sail.". almost??? but not closed.

if you look at the photos of finian you will see that he is sailing on a port tack in the bottom right photo and a strboard tack in the others. so something is definately different. either board direction or wind direction. in all the photos where the board is in a broad reach position the sail is not paralel to the board. it is impossible to close the gap if the foot of the sail is not touching the board.

and i know finian is an awesome sailor but the last time i sheeted out while on a very fast broad reach with a purpose built speed board of about 60lt i ate it so bad that the board and rig where not together when i surfaced..... ie. it is not good to sheet out at very high speed. one of the reasons why modern twist top sails are so effective at high speed is because
they spill the gust allowing the sailor to stay sheeted on and in control.

-jj

The bend on Finian's mast indicates that other things than closing a gap are on his mind.
(No 30 knot experience here, 30 km/hr is my goal.)
Speed sailing is for the brave but it seems to be-
Start with a sail 2 sizes too big and a board 2 sizes too small.
Set the harness lines back until you have no back hand pressure at all, as this would result in back foot pressure on the fin , which will instantly spin you out.
Let the gusts drive you broader, head up a tiny bit in the lulls.
Pray

I was on the water for about 8 hours today, giving this slot closing thing a red hot go. With my cammed Neil Pryde Rx1 6.4m, there came a point where it really didn't feel right to rake the mast back more, I lost power and the sail felt like it was going to fall over backwards. This was with a good 30 cm between my rear big toe and the sail foot (feet in straps). Thinking it was probably to do with this sail, I then tried my Neil Pryde Soul 5.7m (wave sail), with pretty much the same result. I raked the mast back as far as I could, but there came a point where it just didn't feel right, again with about 30 cm from my rear big toe to the sail foot.

Both times I was sheeted in so that the sail was over the back of the board, doing mach 10 and almost bunnyhopping in the chop. I'm sure that if I had pushed the back of the board down just before cresting the chop I'd have been airborne... as it was the back of the board sort of just brushed the back of each wave.

So maybe Cribby was right about not closing the slot... well not to worry, the whole sheeting in thing really helps to get back to the straps, and once there things tend to happen very quickly
There was a catamaran out there today which I overtook many times, damn that feels good! Something with probably 4 times the sail area that I had up, yet I could blast past it. Also getting further along with my gybes, the rig flip still has me totally puzzled but the rest of it seems to be working.

hey drjukka,

if you can't get to sandy point anytime soon then caloundra is the go....

western side of the sandbar in a SE is unbelievable. dead flat water.
very shallow.
i think it is the best speed location in queensland.

another is pebble beach near bribie. a bit more chop though.

-jj

quote:

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Originally posted by vando

Guys There's a fine line between sheeting out too much or not enough.
That's what fine tuning is all about and can make the difference.
The more you go off the wind the more power you well need so sheeting in doesn't make sense.It can also appear that a sailer is closing the gap, however he may have the sail pulled down but have the sail sheeted out this may look like the gap is closed depending on the angle your looking from.

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True that, Mike has broad reaching wired wheras I'm off the pace. One of the main reasons about the 100 times more hours he spends on the water to me is he runs his harness lines a little further forward. I have mine right back so whilst being quicker than most on most points of sail once I swing far off the wind I stall the sail. To counter this I should probably use a massively deep set sail but since I dont weight 150kg it becomes a little unusable for all other points of sail. I definately should get into max speed a little more, i've only tried on 1 or 2 days and they were both choppy as hell.

*nebbian your RX1 isnt really designed to close the slot, I use RX2's and I can tell you with the pic on my web page I was actually losing power by it being that far closed- there is also some pics of vando on there for anyone interested sorry for the crappy format I will change it eventually http://members.optusnet.com.au/~makora/

*Gestalt there are other spots in queensland: vando has a secret spot, wello will work in the right westerly I have seen it and sailed it broad reaching in dead flat water. I also saw another suitable spot years ago but it requires a boat to get there and it may have changed- maybe Mike and I might make the day trip there some time.

Finian speed sailing was probably a poor choice for several reasons. First is that he is trimming the sail to be absolutely quickest for the conditions it may require a slight rake here or there or the sail/board combo may suit having the gap closed. Secondly he is pushing the sails to the limits probably to the point that many of us here would likely be using half as much sail area, despite his huge strength and weight jacket assisted bulk even he probably needs to dump some of the power from the sail.

If I was in his (finian's) position I would be carrying as much sail as I can carry for the consistent wind so that given a slight lull you still have plenty of power to carry your speed (and you just have to pray in the gusts- maybe also why he uses rdm's). When I talk of pictures I'm not just referring to the latest ones, I've watched finian since his gaastra days cause here was this incredibly fast sailor but he had ****ty luck and couldnt gybe as good as he should- speed sailing was always the natural progression.

Looking at speed sailors there has always been the sail more upright and the sail raked groups. The first were often the bigger sailors, the latter were often the lighter sailors (though not exclusive)and the chicks. They tend to get the board onto least wetted area (which closing the slot helps to do) but sometimes go to far and can start the board skipping. Again watching speed sailors is sometimes wrong since they are on the edge which brings me to Dunky- often pictures of him you see the slot closed but he does use big sails so probably trims for the conditions and closes it to dump power.

Haha yeah mike was gonna say does that sound like anyone
Sailed 3 days last week, all on freestyle gear working on gybes and a few other things that will come in handy when racing/blasting with you . I figured you were down at slalom titles or recovering from them.
I have next 4 days off- you got the day off today?

FM was down at woodies on the weekend, awesome to watch

was looking at the photos on Al's website, man I knew it was flat but that is insane. Definately going to try to make the trip down this year, looks cold tho.

Wont be happening too soon, just checked google earth sandbars have moved around (unfavourably).