GUN mast & Neil Pryde sails?

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alxk
alxk
VIC
5 posts
VIC, 5 posts
18 Sep 2006 2:45pm
I am interested to know if anyone is using a 'Gun Cross' 65% carbon mast with any of the 06 Pryde expression range of sails.
I am interested in a new mast and the prices of the www.windsurfingsales.com.au gear seems good....but will it set right?

Thoughts?

Crash Landing
Crash Landing
NSW
1173 posts
NSW, 1173 posts
18 Sep 2006 4:08pm
All masts of the same size should have very similar flex/curve attributes, therfore a Gun mast should set as well as a neil pryde, gaastra etc. The difference you get with masts is the strength, weight and people being tarts who only want neil pryde etc. Best bet is to see where the masts are made. Most are made in the same 1 or 2 factories.


nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
18 Sep 2006 3:21pm
All you ever wanted to know (but were afraid to ask) about masts can be found here:

www.peterman.dk/start-windsurfing-gb01.htm

It shows that Gun masts have a characteristic curve that's pretty similar to a Neil Pryde mast, so you should be fine. Gaastra and Fiberspar are the ones you've got to watch.

Note: IMCS is the stiffness, and has nothing to do with the shape of the mast curve.
Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
18 Sep 2006 4:30pm
Comrade Crash
I beg to differ re
['All masts of the same size should have very similar flex/curve attributes']

While they maay have the same flex rating many seam to flex in differnt places.
Maybe this is not much of an issue for lighter guys but for the heavier guys it certainly makes a big difference.
Trial and error is the best method
That said, the site Comrade Nebbs has pointed to certainly looks the goods.
stehsegler
stehsegler
WA
3580 posts
WA, 3580 posts
18 Sep 2006 5:03pm
hey Kremlin dude...

not exactly true. two masts with identical IMCS should have the same flex characteristics and hence the sail should rig the same. IMCS defines more or less where the mast flexes.

In addition, windsurf masts aren't exactly aircraft wings where the manufacturering tolerances have to be very precise. Most manufacturers IMCS readings are probably within a +/- 0.5 tolerance.

You are probably referring to the difference in feel on the water. This is most likely due to a different speed with which the mast flexes back to it's neutral rigged position.

A NP X9 with 100% for example will have a different flex feel on the water compared to say an NP X6. In my experience the a higher Carbon content results in a more responsive mast (faster flexing mast) at additional cost.

My recent experience with NP masts has been that they often go from very stiff to very flexible (read become a three part mast) within a couple of sails.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
18 Sep 2006 5:33pm
Stehsegler,

The IMCS is the stiffness. Once again this has nothing to do with the bend characteristics.

The stiffer the mast, the more force you need to downhaul, but this doesn't say where the force is distributed. It can be argued that the flex characteristic is more important than the stiffness, but since mast manufacturers only really publish their IMCS it's difficult to compare. You can have two masts with the same IMCS number, and totally different flex curves, and the one sail will set totally differently on the two masts.

Please check the link I posted above for more information. It certainly opened my eyes
mineral1
mineral1
WA
4564 posts
WA, 4564 posts
18 Sep 2006 5:37pm
ALXK Oh my gawd, now ya started it

By the time this topic is dusted off, you will wish you never asked.
All in jest of course,

If you read between the lines, some good info. Typle reply is the one with the web site recomendation, now there's good stuff to get your teeth into
mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
18 Sep 2006 7:52pm
Kremlin and neb are right. Response rate and material distribution all have big effects on masts even though they might be the same stiffness (IMCS). There is also a bit of freedom in mast curve, i dont know about all the pryde masts but some where on the flex tip side of constant curves.

Pryde sails do tend to be very mast specific, but maybe windsurfingsales can help you out a bit by getting their hands on some prydes and rigging them on gun masts to advise on how well they set.
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
18 Sep 2006 10:12pm
That's a good link Neb. Lots of good data about different masts.

FWIW I quizzed the Gun boys about their bend curve and they assured me that they were all 14% bend, top flex closer to NP (15%) than classic Constant Curve (12%). As a mater of principle and versatility I try to stick to 12%.

That Gun forum is a PITA to get on to. It requires registration and it has a particularly unfriendly registration page. I wont be going back.
alxk
alxk
VIC
5 posts
VIC, 5 posts
19 Sep 2006 8:37am
Thanks guys...I will try to find a gun mast in Melbourne to rig the expression. It may look good on the grass, but its how it feels on the water that matters...and no doubt what feels good to me will feel different for someone else!

It would be great if ALL manufacturers used one size mast of the same bend characteristics for their entire smaller size range...dream on!
Crash Landing
Crash Landing
NSW
1173 posts
NSW, 1173 posts
19 Sep 2006 9:59am
quote:
Originally posted by Kremlin

Comrade Crash
I beg to differ re
['All masts of the same size should have very similar flex/curve attributes']



Kremlin, looks like i made a sweeping statement. I didn't realise there was such a complexity of bend characteristics. I remember my dad used to have a north infinity limited edition (an awesome sail) which required a flex top mast. I assumed you either had a constant flex mast or a flex top mast. I have recently bought some Loft 100% RDM's and the difference i feel in them over a SDM is massive. It feels like the mast flexes from a lower point (just above the boom) and allows the leach to open more progressivly - and it flexes back nice and quick.

When I windsurf I just want something that is light, strong and handles gusts well. I probably wouldn't be able to feel a 1-5% difference in a rig by having different brand masts...
Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
19 Sep 2006 8:26am
Comrade Crash

Did not mean to come across heavy handed or attempting to shoot you down for your thoughts and views... all valid.
i just think with most things windsurfing based, it comes back to horses for courses
This is particularly relevant when you start factoring in different sizes and weights of different sailors and how that effects their rig.
I have to agree in part with Comrade Stehsgler about the flex rating of masts... in fact this is one of the main reasons I have shied away from the skinny as it tends to 'over react' with aa heavy sailor (85 kg and above) by this I mean it tends to feel very soft as it is constanly flexing.
I use a 100% carbon wave mast (rdm but not skinny) which works a treat. If I rig the same sail with the same manufactuers skinny mast i find the sail soft and twitchy. On the other hand a comrade of mine who is around the 75 kg mark lurves the skinny on the same sail
?
That said 2 suposedly identically rated masts by 2 different manufacturers will perform quite differently on the same sail in my experience

Horses for courses as i said and if possible it's always worth while trying before you buy (easier said than done though)

And just for the record i have been runnning a 100% carbon 430 North viper with the 04/05/06 Pryde Expression and Pryde Search and it works an absolute treat !
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