High wind sailing

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sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
6 Jul 2011 2:01pm
Is it normal for the board to get flipped upsidedown when you are waterstarting or is that a sign that the board is too large for the conditions? I'm used to the board getting flipped over etc but just thought of this yesterday..I went out in 30-35kts consistent with my 3.3m + 78ltre board and was grossly overpowered.. only lasted 20mins..and did a painful faceplant into the rig on one gybe..The sail was a 91 delaminating model so it was a pain..either on or off..I've been spoilt with modern sails they are so much more user friendly..this one had it in for me.. The water was pretty flat for the conditions..
ejmack
ejmack
VIC
1308 posts
VIC, 1308 posts
6 Jul 2011 2:28pm
Hi sboardcrazy. I'm no expert but I'm thinking your last few sentence's say it all - your '91 model sail is the cause of your problem. I'm relatively new to the sport but I hear that vintage never had much in the way of a "loose" leach etc. ie loads of power?
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
6 Jul 2011 2:35pm
ejmack said...

Hi sboardcrazy. I'm no expert but I'm thinking your last few sentence's says it all - your '91 model sail is the cause of your problem. I'm relatively new to the sport but I hear that vintage never had much in the way of a "loose" leach etc. ie loads of power?


The mast & boom are a bit long too which doesn't help.I've got used to the nice gradual power of modern sails and this91 one is a b..tch.
I've found a 3.2m for sale but it needs a 351 - 353 mast ( I have 400 but correct IMCs) and needs boom 135 -137 ..mine is 145..I will only use it 6 x a year at best ( prob less) so I don't want to buy another mast & boom.I know it won't perform at best with that setup but I'm wondering if I'd get away with it? I've emailed Sailworks but thought I'd throw it out in the forum as well while I wait for their answer.
stehsegler
stehsegler
WA
3580 posts
WA, 3580 posts
6 Jul 2011 12:48pm
ditch that 3.3 and buy a new one. I had a 3.5 Simmer Wave back in the day. It was a great sail for places like the Gorge and the South of France. I think the strongest I used the sail in was a 60 knt day in Marseille.

That said I dragged it out last year to for a 50 knt day and in the end I found the 3 year old 4.0 had a better range.

The main problem seems to be the boom length. In those days they made the boom of small sails stupidly short. The result was, as you said, very little between on and off.

You will find that you have little option but to buy a 340 or 370 mast for that small sail though. From my experience those sails just don't work on 400 masts. As far as the boom is concerned you could probably get away with using a 145 boom.
jsnfok
jsnfok
WA
899 posts
WA, 899 posts
6 Jul 2011 1:02pm
well if was 30-35 knots so not much stays on the water, i get the same problem, its just that your moving through the water faster and theres more chop, kinda normal, part of high wind sailing
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
6 Jul 2011 3:33pm
stehsegler said...

ditch that 3.3 and buy a new one. I had a 3.5 Simmer Wave back in the day. It was a great sail for places like the Gorge and the South of France. I think the strongest I used the sail in was a 60 knt day in Marseille.

That said I dragged it out last year to for a 50 knt day and in the end I found the 3 year old 4.0 had a better range.

The main problem seems to be the boom length. In those days they made the boom of small sails stupidly short. The result was, as you said, very little between on and off.

You will find that you have little option but to buy a 340 or 370 mast for that small sail though. From my experience those sails just don't work on 400 masts. As far as the boom is concerned you could probably get away with using a 145 boom.


Do any manufacturers sell cheaper 370 masts?
jsnfok
jsnfok
WA
899 posts
WA, 899 posts
6 Jul 2011 1:36pm
see sunshine masts, very good bang for buck
Windxtasy
Windxtasy
WA
4019 posts
WA, 4019 posts
6 Jul 2011 2:18pm
I sometimes find the board gets flipped upside down when waterstarting. Not sure why.
Last time it happened to me it was 25 knots+ and choppy and I was overfinned and overboarded, so maybe board size is relevant. Maybe it was the chop? It was a 2010 sail so modernity of the sail had nothing to do with it.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
6 Jul 2011 4:45pm
jsnfok said...

see sunshine masts, very good bang for buck


My 400 is a sunshine mast..I think Boardcrazy looked them up and they don't make cheapies below 400..looking at $500 +
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
6 Jul 2011 4:55pm
Windxtasy said...

I sometimes find the board gets flipped upside down when waterstarting. Not sure why.
Last time it happened to me it was 25 knots+ and choppy and I was overfinned and overboarded, so maybe board size is relevant. Maybe it was the chop? It was a 2010 sail so modernity of the sail had nothing to do with it.


I didn't think the sail was the issue with the flipping ( certainly with control & being too big it was an issue). I used to think it was the waves that flipped the board but it was flat yesterday so it's prob windage of the board.
KenHo
KenHo
NSW
1353 posts
NSW, 1353 posts
6 Jul 2011 7:20pm
As you fly the sail, you are getting pushed downwind. If the lee rail catches, the board will flip. Tends to happen a lot as a wave lifts the board and pushes it a bit more downwind.
Keep pressure on the windward rail to keep the lee rail clear. It can be tricky.
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
6 Jul 2011 7:32pm
Sounds like bragging to me!

Seriously though - boards are light & and with a mastbase in the middle of the board, add some wind chop & a bit of wind tunnelling under the sail, lifting the board - it will flip.

Technique-wise, point the nose downwind more & rest your foot on the back of the board (and as mentioned, keep the windward rail down) & it shouldn't go anywhere. If it does, flip it back & away you go!
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
6 Jul 2011 5:44pm
That's why I like to waterstart with my back foot in it's strap. You have real control of the board like that.
In fact when really over powered you can have both feet in the straps.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23685 posts
WA, 23685 posts
6 Jul 2011 6:16pm
New gear? Bah, rubbish.

It happens to everyone when it is really blowing. The chop lifts the rail a bit and it doesn't take much exposed bottom for the wind to flip it when it is really strong.

After flying the sail you can leave the front hand on the boom and use rear hand to grab the rear strap to position the board well. And it won't flip over whilst you're holding it!
The leech may flap like mad but you can stay in that pre-waterstart position for ages
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
7 Jul 2011 9:45am
Mark _australia said...

New gear? Bah, rubbish.

It happens to everyone when it is really blowing. The chop lifts the rail a bit and it doesn't take much exposed bottom for the wind to flip it when it is really strong.

After flying the sail you can leave the front hand on the boom and use rear hand to grab the rear strap to position the board well. And it won't flip over whilst you're holding it!
The leech may flap like mad but you can stay in that pre-waterstart position for ages


Sounds right. I waterstart with both feet in the straps if I can & hook in as I go up as my arms are too weak to really hold on long in those winds.
I think a lot of my sail troubles ( other than it being a 20 year old delaminating sail) is the mast mismatch.Here's Bruce Petersons reply-
Thanks for your message. While it is geometrically possible to use a 400 cm mast on the Revo 3.2 by using a longer headcap strap, the compatibility issue of doing so relates to the mast stiffness, not its length. Masts are scaled in stiffness by length - shorter masts are softer, and longer masts are stiffer - to maintain a level of equivalency in rig tension per square meter. The problem that arises when you rig smaller sails on the lower section of longer masts is that they become over tensioned from their optimum settings. This condition is compounded if the rider is lighter in weight.

Performance-wise, using a mast that is too stiff will cause the profile of the sail to become very full and "knuckled" along the leading edge, while the leech tension will be increased, reducing the leech twist. Aerodynamically, these changes make it difficult to keep a smooth air flow attached to the sail's profile. I suspect you already know by now how this will feel: twitchy.

So the short answer is, yes, you can use a 400 cm mast on the Revo 3.2, however it is far from the optimum setup. If you spend any amount of time on this size sail it would be far more comfortable to ride, with a wider wind range, if used on a 370 or 340 mast.



I've emailed him to see if a newer mismatched sail would work any better...I don't want to pay $500 for a mast I might use 4 x a year.
terminal
terminal
1421 posts
1421 posts
7 Jul 2011 8:12am
You may be able to find a 370 standard diameter mast for little money. As people move to new sails made for RDMs the SDMs have become very cheap, yet they work almost as well.
Its still important though to buy one to match the sail. ie, is the sail designed for a constant curve mast, a soft top mast or a stiff top mast?

Having said that, i wouldn't expect a pre 1998 sail to handle well, even with the right mast. A few did, but compared to properly rigged modern sails, they all compare badly.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
7 Jul 2011 11:03am
I hadn't thought of secondhand..a bit wary as how do you know if its been dropped etc but that may be my only option..
Windxtasy
Windxtasy
WA
4019 posts
WA, 4019 posts
7 Jul 2011 10:23am
decrepit said...

That's why I like to waterstart with my back foot in it's strap. You have real control of the board like that.
In fact when really over powered you can have both feet in the straps.


My favourite method of waterstarting if there's enough wind.
Windxtasy
Windxtasy
WA
4019 posts
WA, 4019 posts
7 Jul 2011 10:25am
sboardcrazy said...

I hadn't thought of secondhand..a bit wary as how do you know if its been dropped etc but that may be my only option..


All my masts have been second hand, haven't broken one yet (fingers crossed).
It may be different if they're getting pounded in surf, but I think for a lady sailor who isn't going to be rough on it and have it really loaded up, second hand should be fine.
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
7 Jul 2011 4:36pm
Windxtasy said...

decrepit said...

That's why I like to waterstart with my back foot in it's strap. You have real control of the board like that.
In fact when really over powered you can have both feet in the straps.


My favourite method of waterstarting if there's enough wind.


You know it's windy when a 110kg guy (me) can do that on an 80l board! Done it once, and nearly snapped the boom/mast.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
7 Jul 2011 7:21pm
Sailhack said...

Sounds like bragging to me!


Seriously though - boards are light & and with a mastbase in the middle of the board, add some wind chop & a bit of wind tunnelling under the sail, lifting the board - it will flip.

Technique-wise, point the nose downwind more & rest your foot on the back of the board (and as mentioned, keep the windward rail down) & it shouldn't go anywhere. If it does, flip it back & away you go!


I should pat myself on the back for getting out and having a go but I just whinge that I stuff my gybes & don't last long..Bugger being self employed the boss is a really critical B...
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