Hydrodynamic for different fins

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Kan
Kan
24 posts
Kan Kan
24 posts
24 Dec 2009 11:06am
What are the hydrodynamic for different types of fin on board performance?
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
24 Dec 2009 2:09pm
Is fin. Is board. Is lift ... duoh


Hang on. I think I misread your query. You want to know how different fin configurations affect board performance?

OK I'll start.
To start with fins are foils and they follow the same rules as air foils. Hydrodynamics and aerodynamics are the same as far as foils are concerned, just scale differently. There is specific info on the web about foils sections. Google NACCA.
Long span and short chord = most efficient for lift/drag so if speed is the priority then long fins rule.

Short span is better for manoeuvrability. There is some doubt as to whether the traditional curvy wave fins are an optimal configuration, but short is definitely better.
As I understand it fin tips produce induced drag so minimising fin tips is better for efficiency. That's a can of worms that has yet to be exercised. I'm waiting for someone to make a quad fin speed board to sail in very shallow water so we can see what happens.
Generally multifin configurations are going to be draggy so they are limited to wave boards. They could be use for freestyle I guess.

Thickness I think is proportional to drag (not sure) but thin fins definitely have less drag. Thickness is qualified by structural requirement and flex. There is a wide variety in fin stiffness these days. Its particularly important in long span fins. I understand even tiny little freestyle fins need a bit of flex.



decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
24 Dec 2009 9:46pm
As NotWal says, but with windsurf fins there's the added complication of ventilation and cavitation. For most of us cavitation isn't a problem, with a typical fin foil it doesn't happen until the high 40kts.
But ventilation is possible at any time.
Going upwind it's because there's too much angle of attack for the leading edge shape to handle, and the fin stalls, the fuller the entry the greater the angle of attack can be, but at low angles of attack the fin will be slow.

Going off the wind at speed too much negative pressure is caused by the above type of foil and it will ventilate even at low angles of attack, (without stalling) a speed foil has a much finer entry, and the thickest part is usually further back.This sort of fin is more likely to ventilate, (stall) and have higher drag, at high angles of attack, but has less drag at low angles of attack
Kan
Kan
24 posts
Kan Kan
24 posts
24 Dec 2009 11:36pm
Thanks for decrepit & NotWal !!!
I try to select suitable fins for my boards - 04 Copello G-cross 95L & 08 Naish FSW 90L. Someone said there's a general rule : big fin for big sail .... small fin for small sail. I find difficult to upwind with Naish FSW screwing up with 30 fin in 15~20 knot condition ....
Should I use freemove / freeride fin or straight fin ???
Or use bigger fin 36~38 ???
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
25 Dec 2009 2:05pm
I'm not familiar with those boards but 30cm sounds like plenty for a 90 litre FSW.
If you use too big a fin you will get tail walking. That is the back of the board will lift out of the water and oscillate from side to side then crash.

A rule of thumb for fin sizing is - for pointers the span of the fin should be about the width of the board where the back foot is. It can be a bit shorter or a bit longer. The qualifiers for longer or shorter are sailor weight, speed and fin style. Wave fins should be about 3/4 to 2/3 of the span of an equivalent pointer I reckon. If you are heavy go a bit longer. If lighter go shorter. The sizes for heavy weights and lightweights overlap quite a bit. As for speed, this is where the sail size correlation comes in. If you will be going fast (small sail) the fin should be from the small end of the scale. If slow (big sail) it should be from the big end.

If you are having trouble getting upwind it could be because the fin is too small (but yours doesn't sound too small) or technique or you are just under powered.
Kan
Kan
24 posts
Kan Kan
24 posts
26 Dec 2009 1:40am
Thanks!
Your illustration let me understand much in fin selection.
Actually, there're many theories in windsurfing sport ....
That the drive to enhance my technique & knowledge in the future....
Rubby
Rubby
65 posts
65 posts
26 Dec 2009 9:31pm

Long span and short chord = most efficient for lift/drag so if speed is the priority then long fins rule.
There are holes in NotWal's explanation. I don't want to go into this because it has been covered extensively on the various pertinent windsurfing URL's. However, Long span short cord isn't always most efficient for lift/drag. In fact at low getting-up-on-a plane, wide cord is most efficient. Racing fins are long span/short cord because once a board is fully on a plane, the long span keeps the windward rail down while the short span promotes higher speeds. A high aspect fin where the cord is wide at the top gives better lift at high speed. However, this type of fin is not as stable at speed as one that has a low aspect.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
26 Dec 2009 10:10pm
Rubby said...


Long span and short chord = most efficient for lift/drag so if speed is the priority then long fins rule.
There are holes in NotWal's explanation. I don't want to go into this because it has been covered extensively on the various pertinent windsurfing URL's. However, Long span short cord isn't always most efficient for lift/drag. In fact at low getting-up-on-a plane, wide cord is most efficient. Racing fins are long span/short cord because once a board is fully on a plane, the long span keeps the windward rail down while the short span promotes higher speeds. A high aspect fin where the cord is wide at the top gives better lift at high speed. However, this type of fin is not as stable at speed as one that has a low aspect.


Somehow Scratchynuts, I find it difficult to take someone's aerodynamic explanations seriously if they can't even spell "chord" correctly. Notwal even did it right, just above what you wrote!

It's a bit like a mechanic who says "That long wobbly thing" when he means the crankshaft.

Or maybe it's just me.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
26 Dec 2009 10:51pm
And this from the man who said we should take it easy on Brucie because he was a reformed character!
Kan
Kan
24 posts
Kan Kan
24 posts
27 Dec 2009 12:19am
Today, I used 34 slalom fin in 20 knot condition ( 04 Copello G-cross 95L & 6.8m )
A little bit overpower but upwind ability is much better.
I guess if there's a limitation of upwind performance in FSW board.
pueno
pueno
19 posts
19 posts
29 Dec 2009 4:38am
nebbian said...
Somehow Scratchynuts, I find it difficult to take someone's aerodynamic explanations seriously if they can't even spell "chord" correctly. Notwal even did it right, just above what you wrote!

It's a bit like a mechanic who says "That long wobbly thing" when he means the crankshaft.

Or maybe it's just me.

No, it's not you.

Well, maybe it is you.

First, you must understand that "cord" is the proper spelling as agreed upon by Brucie S'nuts and all his 80 +/- aliases.

Second, you must understand that it's very difficult for him to include the "h," since has has been told so many times to "get the h outta here."

And, finally, you must understand that he's a moron. But he *is* fun to have around.

IWS has been quiet the last few days. It's amazing how much Mr. Swift is missed.

BTW...... be careful when you say "that long wobbly thing" around Mr. S. You'll start his heart beating even faster than he can sand his fin.

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