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Kit problems: loud flappy leech, unwieldy board

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Created by gbm91 A week ago, 9 Jan 2020
gbm91
VIC, 32 posts
9 Jan 2020 9:36AM
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Hi everyone,

LONG POST WARNING!

TL;DR:
- too much front foot pressure + catapult feeling
- loud flappy leech between top 2 battens
- board bouncing all over the place

Full post:

I recently had 2 sessions on my 4.2 approx 2003 NP Expression (5 batten crossover sail) with my 94L 2013 Kode with 28cm freewave fin.
I was somewhat overpowered during both sessions.
I am 80kg.

I've not upgraded my 4.2 as I rarely use it hence why it is a bit old. It is in good condition.

The Kode works well for me as I sail in the bay in Melbourne and I'm also sailing 1-3ft waves outside the bay.
This is my smallest board.

There are 3 problems which I have been having which I'm hoping you can help me out with:

1) Loud flappy leech

I'm using a NP X9 370 wave mast (unsure of year but probably 2010+) with 24cm extension which is 2cm more than on the sail specs. The reason I use an extra 2cm extention is that the leech remains tight with if rigged to the specs.
Now the first issue is the leech, namely between the top 2 battens which flicks in the wind and makes lots of noise! It sounds quite unhealthy and is quite distracting...

- Should I be worried or just deal with it as I don't use the sail often?
- Is it likely that the mast isn't 100% compatible due to the age difference with the sail?

2) Sail pulling forward and over the boom, wayyyy too much front foot pressure

I have been learning to sail off the front foot to improve my marginal wind sailing and to use smaller sails.
However (!), with this setup all the power seemed to go straight through my front foot and pulling over the boom in the harness. The outside of my front foot was being pushed into the front of the front footstraps, causing pain and discomfort. Little to no pressure on back foot, feeling like I was going to get catapulted.

I tried lowering the boom but all this did was stick the board flat to the water and make it feel very slow and heavy.
Can't remember if I tried moving the mast track back.

- Could this also be related to the mast/sail compatibility? (Leech not releasing etc.)
- Ideas?

3) Bouncy board

The board wasn't tailwalking but was a handful. Bouncing on every piece of chop.
When I manage to get any sort of speed on the way back in to the shore, the speed and chop made for a violent rodeo-style journey.

I don't seem to have this problem when using the board with my 4.7m and 5.7m sails.

- Could a smaller fin help control the board better? (I intend on getting a 24cm for wave riding anyway)
- Is the board too big for the conditions?
- If so, what size would you recomend?

Thanks for your time!

tomp
NSW, 646 posts
9 Jan 2020 1:43PM
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- try mast track position way forward
- sail might be more suitable to 400 mast
- smaller fin may help considering 4.2 strength wind
- harness line position can help more neutral stance on board
- if more than 30 knots you tire noticably quicker & technique may slip
- have a look at other sailors set up
- that's enough

Faff
VIC, 718 posts
9 Jan 2020 5:38PM
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Ride it on the rail. Push into the board with your backfoot heel, the top of the backfoot pushing against the strap (bigger straps help). Keep your legs straight. Move the harness lines 3-5 cm further back (back harness line 1/3 from the mast). It will feel like your front forearm is burning, but it will force you to get your weight forward and after a while it will feel natural, especially when powered up. It will all feel catapulty for a few sessions, then it will feel normal and you'll be able to get away with much smaller fins and you'll just slice through chop upwind.

choco
SA, 3490 posts
9 Jan 2020 5:13PM
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Waiting4wind
NSW, 1842 posts
9 Jan 2020 7:14PM
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In 4.2 weather I'm using a 23cm wave fin on a Fsw 78, you really don't need much fin, you'd be plenty powered up I assume. I'd definitely go smaller to help with board control.

sail pulling forward suggests not enough DH, but the noisy leach can be a sign of too much DH. maybe you need to look at mast compatibility. tuning can be a challenge on gear / sail you use once in a blue moon.

Roy
VIC, 92 posts
9 Jan 2020 8:09PM
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PPB gets pretty choppy when its windy and a smaller board would probably help. I would usually use my 85lt with a 4.2 (I'm 87 kgs), although sometimes I run a larger board when the water is flatter & gusty (usually when its a Northerly!).

As for the sail, the Expression was also NP's "freestyle" wave sail at the time and freestyle sails do tend to be more bottom end orientated with a tighter leach in order to get going with the smallest sail possible (although this is a bit of a generalisation). Therefore you might find if you rig your sail to the spec's (i.e. with the tighter leach) the wind range might be more similar to your 4.7 especially if your 4.7 is a top-end orientated sail.

Perhaps you should ask a few people at the beach next time you a sailing.....I'm sure you will get plenty of opinions

gbm91
VIC, 32 posts
10 Jan 2020 10:03AM
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Thank you everyone for all the tips.

Lots of tuning to try! I forget about these things when I've gotten used to my kit and know how to rig it.

Select to expand quote
Roy said..
PPB gets pretty choppy when its windy and a smaller board would probably help. I would usually use my 85lt with a 4.2 (I'm 87 kgs), although sometimes I run a larger board when the water is flatter & gusty (usually when its a Northerly!).

As for the sail, the Expression was also NP's "freestyle" wave sail at the time and freestyle sails do tend to be more bottom end orientated with a tighter leach in order to get going with the smallest sail possible (although this is a bit of a generalisation). Therefore you might find if you rig your sail to the spec's (i.e. with the tighter leach) the wind range might be more similar to your 4.7 especially if your 4.7 is a top-end orientated sail.

Perhaps you should ask a few people at the beach next time you a sailing.....I'm sure you will get plenty of opinions


That's a very good point you have made about the sail rigging with a tighter leech. I hadn't thought of it but it makes sense.
This is the same with my 5.7m 2013 NP Firefly which is also a FSW sail which rigs with a tight leech. It has no power and feels awful with a floppy leech. Nice a light and flicky with tight leech.

Perhaps I just need a bit more consistency in my quiver which will help iron out any issues. The best things would be for there to be more 4.2 weather days for me to test it out!
That or I give it a try with my 113L Kode in lighter winds to compare it to the 4.7m; which is a 2005 NP Zone (wave sail for light to moderate sailors).

Faff
VIC, 718 posts
Friday , 10 Jan 2020 6:47PM
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Select to expand quote
Roy said..
PPB gets pretty choppy when its windy and a smaller board would probably help. I would usually use my 85lt with a 4.2 (I'm 87 kgs), although sometimes I run a larger board when the water is flatter & gusty (usually when its a Northerly!).

As for the sail, the Expression was also NP's "freestyle" wave sail at the time and freestyle sails do tend to be more bottom end orientated with a tighter leach in order to get going with the smallest sail possible (although this is a bit of a generalisation). Therefore you might find if you rig your sail to the spec's (i.e. with the tighter leach) the wind range might be more similar to your 4.7 especially if your 4.7 is a top-end orientated sail.

Perhaps you should ask a few people at the beach next time you a sailing.....I'm sure you will get plenty of opinions

Interesting. I thought tight leech freestyle sails were a "recent" (10 years old) innovation and older freestyle sails were basically like wave sails... Apparently not. Anyway, I use freestyle sails and the leech can be made slightly looser for more top end, but any more and the sail just stops working.

Faff
VIC, 718 posts
Friday , 10 Jan 2020 7:03PM
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Select to expand quote
gbm91 said..
Thank you everyone for all the tips.

Lots of tuning to try! I forget about these things when I've gotten used to my kit and know how to rig it.

Roy said..
PPB gets pretty choppy when its windy and a smaller board would probably help. I would usually use my 85lt with a 4.2 (I'm 87 kgs), although sometimes I run a larger board when the water is flatter & gusty (usually when its a Northerly!).

As for the sail, the Expression was also NP's "freestyle" wave sail at the time and freestyle sails do tend to be more bottom end orientated with a tighter leach in order to get going with the smallest sail possible (although this is a bit of a generalisation). Therefore you might find if you rig your sail to the spec's (i.e. with the tighter leach) the wind range might be more similar to your 4.7 especially if your 4.7 is a top-end orientated sail.

Perhaps you should ask a few people at the beach next time you a sailing.....I'm sure you will get plenty of opinions


That's a very good point you have made about the sail rigging with a tighter leech. I hadn't thought of it but it makes sense.
This is the same with my 5.7m 2013 NP Firefly which is also a FSW sail which rigs with a tight leech. It has no power and feels awful with a floppy leech. Nice a light and flicky with tight leech.

Perhaps I just need a bit more consistency in my quiver which will help iron out any issues. The best things would be for there to be more 4.2 weather days for me to test it out!
That or I give it a try with my 113L Kode in lighter winds to compare it to the 4.7m; which is a 2005 NP Zone (wave sail for light to moderate sailors).

A consistent quiver of sails is one of the best things you can do for your windsurfing.

jn1
SA, 1822 posts
Friday , 10 Jan 2020 7:11PM
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gbm91:

Regarding : "2) Sail pulling forward and over the boom, wayyyy too much front foot pressure"

Is your sail going "back handed" ?


Choco: Why does Colin 'Whippy' Dixon always look like he's having a morning booze up at a golf course in his videos ? (not that that is a bad thing)

gbm91
VIC, 32 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 10:14AM
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Select to expand quote
jn1 said..
gbm91:

Regarding : "2) Sail pulling forward and over the boom, wayyyy too much front foot pressure"

Is your sail going "back handed" ?


Choco: Why does Colin 'Whippy' Dixon always look like he's having a morning booze up at a golf course in his videos ? (not that that is a bad thing)


By "back handed" do you mean too much back hand pressure? If so, then no. Harness lines seemed to be in the correct place. However, being overpowered and also bouncing around often meant not commiting to the harness

jn1
SA, 1822 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 1:45PM
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Yes, basically. The sail suddenly wants to sheet out. You fix that immediately by applying more "back hand" force.

My observations: All freeride/wave sails I have used gradually go back handed when they are powered from nothing to maximum wind range. In most of the wind range (if sail is correctly rigged), this effect is not noticeable. It only becomes noticeable when the centre of effort is moved enough to affect the rider. From rider's perspective, this will cause the sail to want to sheet out and it some cases I have observed, the sail will want to go forward. I just want to clarify if that is what you are experiencing before I give you my remedy for that effect.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6853 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 2:26PM
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I'm getting back into B & J and using older sails ( 2008 Sailworks Hucker ) on a modern mast ( 2017 Severne 430 SDM ) . I had to add heaps of extra downhaul to get the sail to look right . I assume the mast is the wrong bend curve or too stiff.. maybe that's part of your problem?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6853 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 2:29PM
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Select to expand quote
jn1 said..
Yes, basically. The sail suddenly wants to sheet out. You fix that immediately by applying more "back hand" force.

My observations: All freeride/wave sails I have used gradually go back handed when they are powered from nothing to maximum wind range. In most of the wind range (if sail is correctly rigged), this effect is not noticeable. It only becomes noticeable when the centre of effort is moved enough to affect the rider. From rider's perspective, this will cause the sail to want to sheet out and it some cases I have observed, the sail will want to go forward. I just want to clarify if that is what you are experiencing before I give you my remedy for that effect.


When I'm overpowered I have my front hand really close to the mast so I can push the front away if it tries to take control..Is this why that works?

Faff
VIC, 718 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 3:20PM
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Select to expand quote
sboardcrazy said..

jn1 said..
Yes, basically. The sail suddenly wants to sheet out. You fix that immediately by applying more "back hand" force.

My observations: All freeride/wave sails I have used gradually go back handed when they are powered from nothing to maximum wind range. In most of the wind range (if sail is correctly rigged), this effect is not noticeable. It only becomes noticeable when the centre of effort is moved enough to affect the rider. From rider's perspective, this will cause the sail to want to sheet out and it some cases I have observed, the sail will want to go forward. I just want to clarify if that is what you are experiencing before I give you my remedy for that effect.



When I'm overpowered I have my front hand really close to the mast so I can push the front away if it tries to take control..Is this why that works?

I think your lines are too far forward.

jn1
SA, 1822 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 3:11PM
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Select to expand quote
sboardcrazy said..

When I'm overpowered I have my front hand really close to the mast so I can push the front away if it tries to take control..Is this why that works?

Is this a speed sail ?

Paducah
668 posts
Tuesday , 14 Jan 2020 1:04PM
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Select to expand quote
sboardcrazy said..
I'm getting back into B & J and using older sails ( 2008 Sailworks Hucker ) on a modern mast ( 2017 Severne 430 SDM ) . I had to add heaps of extra downhaul to get the sail to look right . I assume the mast is the wrong bend curve or too stiff.. maybe that's part of your problem?


Severne is hard topish side of CC and Sailworks prefers slightly flex-top CC. Yes, you have to add too much downhaul to get the leech to fall off to spec. Your sail probably seems a bit flat in the middle.

www.unifiber.net/unifiber-masts-selector-2017-v1

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6853 posts
Wednesday , 15 Jan 2020 9:58AM
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Select to expand quote
jn1 said..

sboardcrazy said..

When I'm overpowered I have my front hand really close to the mast so I can push the front away if it tries to take control..Is this why that works?


Is this a speed sail ?


No non cammed in overpowered conditions..

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6853 posts
Wednesday , 15 Jan 2020 9:59AM
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Select to expand quote
Paducah said..

sboardcrazy said..
I'm getting back into B & J and using older sails ( 2008 Sailworks Hucker ) on a modern mast ( 2017 Severne 430 SDM ) . I had to add heaps of extra downhaul to get the sail to look right . I assume the mast is the wrong bend curve or too stiff.. maybe that's part of your problem?



Severne is hard topish side of CC and Sailworks prefers slightly flex-top CC. Yes, you have to add too much downhaul to get the leech to fall off to spec. Your sail probably seems a bit flat in the middle.

www.unifiber.net/unifiber-masts-selector-2017-v1


I suspected that.. I don't want to buy a new mast for a 2008 model sail though. I'll eventually upgrade to a more modern sail..



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