NP sails, top hole or bottom hole

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grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
29 Nov 2006 1:32pm
I've recently been mucking around with the rigging my on NP search 5.4, specifically the top and bottom outhaul holes.

might be wrong here, but seem to remember that the top hole is supposed to give you a tighter leach, But I didn't really notice any appreciale difference.
(probably doesn't help that when I'm doing this I spend most of the time sailing, looking up at the sail, which usually results in me falling in)

I'd be interested in others views on the use of these.
Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
29 Nov 2006 1:37pm
goto the neil pryde website and get the rigging guide for your sail. it has an explanation of the uses of the diff holes. can't remember and can't be bothered looking it up because NP is
mineral1
mineral1
WA
4564 posts
WA, 4564 posts
29 Nov 2006 3:30pm
Grumps, top hole soft breeze, bottom hole strong breeze. Bottom hole gives flatter shape according to web site and WSP Reg
Have a 5.6 search myself, and works for me, not that I am any expert at all.
Last Thursday 4-6pm ran with bottom hole at Pinneroo, needed a flat shape with the breeze running 18-20 on a 130 lt. Saves me crashing as much as I normaly do when the breeze springs up

Hope this helps.

Mineral
elmo
elmo
WA
8896 posts
WA, 8896 posts
29 Nov 2006 3:44pm
Grumples

You ask a good question regarding what I class as a brilliant feature in NP sails (and some others).

A quick explanation of the two eyelets for out haul.

Top eyelet
the top eyelet pull more from the top of the sail and is generally used for the bottom end capabilities of your sail.

Bottom eyelet
The bottom eyelet pulls more from the bottom of the sail. When you switch from top to bottom without adjusting the down haul you will notice the bottom section of the sail now looks fuller whist the twist of of the sail now goes almost down to the boom. the beifit of which is it feels like you've greatly reduced your sail size and got your power down nice and low.

It is recommended that you visit the neil pryde site and have a look at the rigging videos as they have all the info you will need.

Alby
mr bagus
mr bagus
WA
85 posts
WA, 85 posts
29 Nov 2006 4:04pm
Leech,
if you can't be bothered why bother to post......
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
29 Nov 2006 4:13pm
cool thanks guys.

I was expecting some smartarse answers like "top hole, second from the back of the neck"

I have looked at the rigging manuals and vids, but didn't really notice that much difference.
Better have another go and give it some more time on the water.
greenleader
greenleader
QLD
5283 posts
QLD, 5283 posts
29 Nov 2006 9:48pm
grumps, i always say " if its windy, stick it in your bottom hole "
CJW
CJW
NSW
1731 posts
CJW CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
29 Nov 2006 11:47pm
Having had a NP sail with that setup before I honestly found it didn't make a difference. It was certainly not noticeable (to me) as oppsoed to adjusting the outhaul or downhaul. I guess though if you rip the clew eye out you've got a spare :P
greenleader
greenleader
QLD
5283 posts
QLD, 5283 posts
29 Nov 2006 10:58pm
just as 2cm of downhaul makes a huge difference to sail handling, so does top/bottom hole adjustment.
tune it on flat water with an open mind and a bit of time to spare. (something few of us have a lot of)
and you will be surprised how it translates to surf/open ocean control!
Crash Landing
Crash Landing
NSW
1173 posts
NSW, 1173 posts
30 Nov 2006 9:19am
And there I was thinking they were for taller/shorter riders!!
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
30 Nov 2006 11:21am
Because I am work I have plenty of time to ponder this question.

Logically I dont see how this can happen for a static sail (i.e. a sail rigged but no wind or rider force exerted.
Mathgeek that I am, I calculate that the largest change in rigging force from changing the clew position is 0.2Kgs. I assume 10kg outhaul tension and that the clew position changes by 17cm. These changes are deliberately large to magnify any result.

www.seabreeze.com.au/gallery/gallery.asp?imageid=2888

So if the effect is not a "static effect" then it must be a result of the way the boom is loaded up when sailing. I think it is a similar effect to raising the boomclamp height. When you raise the boom at the mast you only get a fraction of the incease in height at the harness lines (proportional to the ratio of the distance between the lines and the mast and the lines and the clew.
By raising the clew height as well as raising the clamp height you get more height increase at he harness lines, resulting in more of the riders weight being carried vertically by the boom (resulting in greater downward pressure on the mastfoot (resulting in earlier planing)) ;-)

I think this is what is going on, (but then I am better at my maths then my windsurfing).

JB
CJW
CJW
NSW
1731 posts
CJW CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
30 Nov 2006 11:56am
As Jaybee showed the effect is minimal, given the small changes in geometry. I come from a sailing background where you spend a large amount of your time tuning your rig for absolute maximum performance, I apply the same ideals to my windsurfing equipment. From my own observations I found a minimal difference between the two holes, certainly in terms of how the rig 'set'. The only discernible difference I could notice was in boom height/angle.

As a tuning device I didn't see that it provided enough 'adjustment' to be worried about. IE I wouldn't go, "hrmm need a bit more control, better move to the bottom hole". If I needed a to make an adjustment I'd trim the outhaul or downhaul appropriately.

These are however only my observations. I'm sure there is a difference but imo it's minimal and is outweighed by the boom height/angle changes.
Pugwash
Pugwash
WA
7733 posts
WA, 7733 posts
30 Nov 2006 9:09am
I had an NP V8 in 8.5 a couple of years back. I think it had 3 clew holes. I recall a major difference on this particular sail, lowest clew definately resulted in more twist (definately depowered and planed later). On the lowest clew, the sail felt less twitchy.
T-11
T-11
WA
18 posts
WA, 18 posts
30 Nov 2006 10:52am
I also am no expert but I was under the understanding that it was also due to the leverage over the board / fin as well. Thus a high boom on the mast gives more leverage and a high clew gives less leach twist and a more parellel boom therfore giving a sail with a good low end.
pete
joval
joval
WA
8 posts
WA, 8 posts
30 Nov 2006 7:39pm
What happens if I thread my outhaul through both holes!!!! Oh the possibilities.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12887 posts
WA, 12887 posts
30 Nov 2006 7:47pm
quote:
Originally posted by joval

What happens if I thread my outhaul through both holes!!!!



A tangle???
Gestalt
Gestalt
QLD
14969 posts
QLD, 14969 posts
30 Nov 2006 10:04pm
when i bought my KA formula sail the rigging instructions said to use the top hole in light winds. use the bottom hole in heavy winds.

the reason given was to do with leach tension and twist. lower hole = more twist.
ducati
ducati
QLD
474 posts
QLD, 474 posts
1 Dec 2006 7:44am
quote:
What happens if I thread my outhaul through both holes!!!!

Gang Bang
nutbag
nutbag
154 posts
154 posts
1 Dec 2006 6:38am
I used to tie a long (approx. 200m) piece of string to the spare hole and the other end to a tree or post on the beach. Kept me from going out to far.
ducati
ducati
QLD
474 posts
QLD, 474 posts
1 Dec 2006 10:08am
quote:
I used to tie a long (approx. 200m) piece of string to the spare hole and the other end to a tree or post on the beach. Kept me from going out to far.

I actually do the same but use a bungee cord and consequently never stuffed a gybe since
Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
1 Dec 2006 8:17pm
quote:
Originally posted by mr bagus

Leech,
if you can't be bothered why bother to post......



Any opportunity to voice my opinion of NP.

Used them for a while but after reading the article about the NP sweatshops in China I'm not spending another cent on NP equipment.

quote:
Originally posted by stamp

from www.cielearn.org/journal_2005/2005nf_sweating.htm

"Sweatshop workers are paid much too little to afford normal housing, so many factories provide their own dormitories. Neil Pryde, a company that makes and sells yacht sails and sporting equipment, has a plant in Shenzen, China. Workers are offered dorms for the equivalent of $20 a month. Each room houses 10 workers in five bunks. There are 18 rooms per floor leaving one bathroom for every 180 workers. This makes for long lines after work gets out, sometimes leading to fights. This is not surprising, as the workers are only allowed a maximum of two bathroom breaks during their eleven-hour shifts. (Kahn, 2003)"

mr bagus
mr bagus
WA
85 posts
WA, 85 posts
1 Dec 2006 9:32pm
Fair enough........
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