Sail size range.

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dioma
dioma
VIC
59 posts
VIC, 59 posts
21 Jan 2010 9:46pm
Trying to get planning and understandably going through the endless but essential number of mistakes on stance, lines position, balance etc.
Nevertheless first question is ‘what is an acceptable range of sail size for the same conditions?’ (say in percentage).
And second: how we compensate in an extreems (i understand getting lower, but do we still spill air pulling front hand ?)

Thanks.
Trousers
Trousers
SA
565 posts
SA, 565 posts
22 Jan 2010 11:11am
hey dioma,

thats a difficult question to answer as there are so many variables, including sailor competency and sail type (race sails have different character than wave).

My V8 7.0m is a relatively big sail (but some formula sailors might say it's relatively small). As a quasi race sail it exhausts well and can tolerate gusty conditions. Its cambers hold a stiff foil shape and with a deep, low draft it's not bad for early planing. I find I can ride it in a large wind range, but it is heavy and not appropriate for freestyle.

My wave 5.4m is a different beast with good early planning but does not handle gusts as well, so has a smaller wind range.

But all of these qualities are second to the sailor's ability. So I would say (and some may disagree);

Planning; Get your boom nice and high. You should be below it (and not hooked in) when trying to plane in marginal conditions, with outstreched arms pushing your weight down into the mast foot (Guy Cribb calls this "hanging like a monkey"). This is also the starting position when you "pump" to hurry things along.

Overpowered; I'm assuming you're in the harness now, so lean the mast to windward and bear upwind. Manually exhausting the sail (pulling on the front hand and sheeting out) will spill wind, but it also reduces mast-foot-pressure, causing the nose of the board to lift and become less stable - this is particularly ugly if you're in chop! While not technically the right thing to do, it is a technique for "survival" sailing to get you home!

Hope that helps.
RumChaser
RumChaser
TAS
633 posts
TAS, 633 posts
22 Jan 2010 7:22pm
You have posed a difficult question which has a multitude of answers. I can only give you a rough idea of what works for me. One problem is that wind speed is a little subjective. What you may think is 20 knots on the shore may be something different out on the water and will vary depending on where you sail. Also your weight will have a big bearing and also the style and type of board you are using. See what I mean?
For me on a 140 litre older style board with a 7m sail I would just be planing in 12-13 knots. Take it up a stage to my 90 litre board and I will be planning with a 6m sail in about 15 knots to a shade over.
As to being overpowered, at this stage you are most likely to be under rather than overpowered. One thing I do is to slip my front foot into the strap before hooking in as this gives me some degree of control of the board before committing to the harness.
dioma
dioma
VIC
59 posts
VIC, 59 posts
22 Jan 2010 10:16pm
Thanks Iseman and Trousers, fine tuning answers. Just to narrow it down what is the sail range for the same board, same wind and same weight ? Or if you want, margin for error on the same session for the same sailor.

Thanks for the wisdome.
RumChaser
RumChaser
TAS
633 posts
TAS, 633 posts
23 Jan 2010 12:54pm
OK this is just a rough guess. On my 7m the range is about 12-15 knots, the 6m from 15-20 knots and the 5m from 20 knots to 30. This is what I would call comfortable sailing. The other day I got caught with the large board and the 7m sail and on checking the BOM website I was out in a touch under 20 knots. I just tightened the outhaul and adjusted the harness lines a bit and it was still quite manageable at that though testing at times.
All these figures are for me and other riders will get different results. After a while you can just look at the sea and the waves and just know what sail to use. Look for white caps and take a close look at the chop, it all gives you clues.
dioma
dioma
VIC
59 posts
VIC, 59 posts
23 Jan 2010 11:32pm
Most of the time in harness, but never managed to get as far as straps. On gusts getting low, still playing with front hand when it's too sudden. Unloading feet to the best of my ability, getting more feeling and balance.
As for the size of the sail, I understand one sq.m. difference should be manageble within 5 kn.
Thanks again.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
23 Jan 2010 10:39pm
It's very complicated, wind power varies with the square of it's speed (I think).
Sail power is linear with sail size, but most of my sails, both wave and cambered have about a 10kt range.
Percentage wise, I'll take a wild guess and say over 10%, could be not quite on the bottom end of a 5.0 and not quite the top end of a 5.5.
Agree with trousers about sheeting out to spill wind. This is a desperation measure, if you have to make sure you get a lot of weight forward.
ginger pom
ginger pom
VIC
1746 posts
VIC, 1746 posts
24 Jan 2010 11:59am
dioma said...

Most of the time in harness, but never managed to get as far as straps. On gusts getting low, still playing with front hand when it's too sudden. Unloading feet to the best of my ability, getting more feeling and balance.
As for the size of the sail, I understand one sq.m. difference should be manageble within 5 kn.
Thanks again.


You're probably trying to be too scientific.

Find someone a similar weight to you and look at what they're using. If the wind is less than 20 knots and the water is flat then you should copy them or go a bit smaller ie around .5m. If it's more than 20 knots then you'll probably struggle without being able to get in the foot straps.

If you go too small then you'll be stuck "half powered up" which is often more work than having enough power.

From your comment about sheeting out, something may be out of balance... There's also a good chance that your harness lines are too far forward which will be stopping you getting in the footstraps (you won't go fast enough, you won't apply enough mast foot pressure, you'll twist at the waist and lose all the power).

Ask someone else to have a sail on your gear and check that everything is in balance. Where do you sail anyway?
dioma
dioma
VIC
59 posts
VIC, 59 posts
24 Jan 2010 1:21pm
Sail usually in Sandringham. Where you absolutely right Ginger Pom, I am probably half powered which physically exhaustive to me. Like yesterday afternoon about 15kn. on a 5.0. It’s just my 5.0 wave feels quite reactive (sometimes beyond my comfort zone). Though with an effort of dropping hips, unloading feet, redirecting sail ‘pull’ into the MFP etc. So a split of a sec. front hand pull, what Trousers described saves out of the water jump (and I am getting really good at that ).

I'll practice on that in the afternoon.
Trousers
Trousers
SA
565 posts
SA, 565 posts
25 Jan 2010 11:10am
So starting out you're caught between rigging big enough to power you against having a small enough rig to be comfortable with. If you're only "half-powered" on a 5m in 15kts, I'd consider rigging larger if possible (5.5-6m); sailing fully powered is much easier than fiddling with barely enough.

Getting into the straps is the final hurdle for everyone's first season of sailing. People tend to make the front strap alright, but feel trepidation about getting into the back one, worried they'll be locked in and unable to quickly step if they get off balance.

But once you make that final leap of faith and get both feet in, being "locked in" gives you a strong leverage over both board and sail. From that day on, your catapults reduce and it's incredibly rare to fall in on a straight line (unless you're right on the edge and get something like tail-walk).

After that, you're be looking for the next challenge; the planning gybe.

Best of luck, and make sure you milk your local sailors for help. Windsurfers looooooove to talk about sailing (post session anyway!).
ginger pom
ginger pom
VIC
1746 posts
VIC, 1746 posts
25 Jan 2010 3:20pm
dioma said...

Sail usually in Sandringham.


Happy to help out. I sail at Dendy in anything with a south in it. I'm the ginger guy who is English...
dioma
dioma
VIC
59 posts
VIC, 59 posts
26 Jan 2010 1:21am
First thanks for support.
Secondly, on a Sunday afternoon, I’ve decided for whatever it worth got to get planing and rigged 6.0 off Hampton shelter in about 20 kn. To make it short, still dizzy from up and down and between the waves plus pulling ton and a half constantly, dislocated right shoulder (sheeting in). The best I get out of my BIC148 was nose sticking out and swinging from side to side 45 degrees range.
On a bright side, enjoyed watching someone flying above the chop with an ease and a speed of a wind into carving jibe around me. It was come and gone in 60 sec.
So at present it is voltaren, panadol, and double shot to forget it all.
Ginger, thanks for the offer, hopefully I’ll see you at Dendy.
P.S. Start hating “Beginner to Winner” – nothing is as easy as it sounds and looks.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8349 posts
NSW, 8349 posts
26 Jan 2010 9:05am
dioma said...

First thanks for support.
Secondly, on a Sunday afternoon, I’ve decided for whatever it worth got to get planing and rigged 6.0 off Hampton shelter in about 20 kn. To make it short, still dizzy from up and down and between the waves plus pulling ton and a half constantly, dislocated right shoulder (sheeting in). The best I get out of my BIC148 was nose sticking out and swinging from side to side 45 degrees range.
On a bright side, enjoyed watching someone flying above the chop with an ease and a speed of a wind into carving jibe around me. It was come and gone in 60 sec.
So at present it is voltaren, panadol, and double shot to forget it all.
Ginger, thanks for the offer, hopefully I’ll see you at Dendy.
P.S. Start hating “Beginner to Winner” – nothing is as easy as it sounds and looks.


Oh sounds horrible! Hope it mends soon!
I can identify with what happened on a smaller scale as after everyone said they could chop hop hooked in I decided to give it a go. I went for it overpowered & had a massive catapult & got bad whiplash.Ive already got a stuffed neck so spent time in bed on pills. Since then Ive decided to play it safe & not to hook in again. Maybe if I had been a bit more cautious ..
I suppose we just have to take little steps.Ive just got a more modern board that is heaps more fun powered up.I tend to underrig out of caution.Im trying to rig larger but its a scary proposition especially if you have unpredictable wind. I have memories of being stuck out in the middle because I fell in and couldnt waterstart with the sail being slammed back down on me as I tried to push it up because I was so overpowered.( that was 90's gear though I dont know if modern rigs are the same.)

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