Sailmakers bring back 0.5m spacing... please!

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mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
5 Apr 2009 11:18am
This has annoyed me (& a few others) for a while. Bring back the old 5.0, 5.5, 6.0 etc. In fact the actual sizing doesn't matter... if 5.3 is your brands most popular wavesail sizing then make it 4.8, 5.3, 5.8.

Why did it change in the first place? Is it harder to scale half metre increments or is it a ploy so you have to buy more sails? In that case it can easily work in reverse as instead of buying the 0.6-0.8m increment many miss a size and go to the next one up. In the past i've considered other brands based on their poor size choices or if it doesn't fit well into the sails I have/want.

So Ben or any other bored sailmakers out there bring back 0.5

Is there anyone that actually disagrees with this (hide your brand loyalty for just a moment)?
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23690 posts
WA, 23690 posts
5 Apr 2009 9:54am
Yeah ... sorta.

In smaller sizes you want smaller gaps, so I have 4.0 and 4.5 but a 4.2 would be nice addition so as to be just powered up the right amount on waves. Less of a problem for non wavesailing of course.

vando
vando
QLD
3419 posts
QLD, 3419 posts
5 Apr 2009 11:54am
Oh if life was only simple
mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
5 Apr 2009 12:28pm
Mark _australia said...

Yeah ... sorta.

In smaller sizes you want smaller gaps, so I have 4.0 and 4.5 but a 4.2 would be nice addition so as to be just powered up the right amount on waves. Less of a problem for non wavesailing of course.




but what if they made a 4.2 and a 4.7? or is that extra 0.2 make a big difference over the 4 & 4.5? Good point though, once I go over 7.5m I like the spacing to be 1.5 and even larger above that.

Personally i've always found even half's work great for race sails and in between for wavesails... ie 5.2/3m wavesail, 5.5 racesail.
Gestalt
Gestalt
QLD
14968 posts
QLD, 14968 posts
5 Apr 2009 12:56pm
you mean like KA Sail,,,,,,, no brand loyalty intended.

i use, 4.7, 5.3, 5.8, 6.4 kults,

their race line has slightly bigger increments though not by much. as they get bigger the increments increase also.

mkseven said...

This has annoyed me (& a few others) for a while. Bring back the old 5.0, 5.5, 6.0 etc. In fact the actual sizing doesn't matter... if 5.3 is your brands most popular wavesail sizing then make it 4.8, 5.3, 5.8.

Why did it change in the first place? Is it harder to scale half metre increments or is it a ploy so you have to buy more sails? In that case it can easily work in reverse as instead of buying the 0.6-0.8m increment many miss a size and go to the next one up. In the past i've considered other brands based on their poor size choices or if it doesn't fit well into the sails I have/want.

So Ben or any other bored sailmakers out there bring back 0.5

Is there anyone that actually disagrees with this (hide your brand loyalty for just a moment)?


WINDY MILLER
WINDY MILLER
WA
3183 posts
WA, 3183 posts
5 Apr 2009 11:10am
at the mo 4.2 5 5.3 5.7


if i had the $$$ and could start again ,


4.2 4.7 5.3 6.2





mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
5 Apr 2009 1:38pm
You had to ruin it hey gestie...

Actually the koncepts where one which I was going to point the finger at being poor sizing.
kato
kato
VIC
3531 posts
VIC, 3531 posts
5 Apr 2009 2:44pm
mkseven said...

You had to ruin it hey gestie...

Actually the koncepts where one which I was going to point the finger at being poor sizing.


If they add more sizing what would i use. At the moment its simple 6.6-light wind,5.8 fun wind, 5.0 lots of fun wind and I don,t have one at the moment but 4.4- a @#!!&%en lot of wind tie the dog to the car
P.C_simpson
P.C_simpson
WA
1492 posts
WA, 1492 posts
5 Apr 2009 1:58pm
Or like the blades in 4.0m, 4.5m , 5.0m , but a 5.5 would be nice. at the moment i go 5.3, 5.7.. i have noticed the sizes do get harder over 5.0m to find nice gaps..
mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
5 Apr 2009 6:21pm
kato said...

mkseven said...

You had to ruin it hey gestie...

Actually the koncepts where one which I was going to point the finger at being poor sizing.


If they add more sizing what would i use. At the moment its simple 6.6-light wind,5.8 fun wind, 5.0 lots of fun wind and I don,t have one at the moment but 4.4- a @#!!&%en lot of wind tie the dog to the car


If only we all lived at sandy point
Old Salty
Old Salty
VIC
1271 posts
VIC, 1271 posts
5 Apr 2009 8:22pm
I guess the sailmakers(I am not one) would say.....
If everybody weighed the same, was the same height and road the same boards in the same conditions they would make 0.5 increment sails
kato
kato
VIC
3531 posts
VIC, 3531 posts
5 Apr 2009 8:34pm
mkseven said...

kato said...

mkseven said...

You had to ruin it hey gestie...

Actually the koncepts where one which I was going to point the finger at being poor sizing.


If they add more sizing what would i use. At the moment its simple 6.6-light wind,5.8 fun wind, 5.0 lots of fun wind and I don,t have one at the moment but 4.4- a @#!!&%en lot of wind tie the dog to the car


If only we all lived at sandy point


Its a curse some of us have to bear
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
5 Apr 2009 9:11pm
That's dumb Mark.
They have to be in geometric series (not incremental) so they can have a rational range from which you can pick your particular preferred sub-range.

If you size all the sails in a range in a geometric series with a common ratio of say 1.117 you may get for example :-
3.4 3.8 4.2 4.7 5.3 5.9 6.6 7.4 8.2 9.2
- each size the same proportional difference from the one before.
If you size them in .5 sqm increments the same range would look like :-
3.4 3.9 4.4 4.9 5.4 5.9 6.4 6.9 7.4 7.9 8.4 8.9 9.4
And the spaces would be proportionally wider at the bottom of the range than the top.

Upthere
Upthere
QLD
348 posts
QLD, 348 posts
5 Apr 2009 9:12pm
it would be even better if they were all designed to rig on the one mast, now that would make life easy.
Gestalt
Gestalt
QLD
14968 posts
QLD, 14968 posts
5 Apr 2009 9:17pm
mkseven said...

You had to ruin it hey gestie...

Actually the koncepts where one which I was going to point the finger at being poor sizing.


lol,

i haven't used the koncept a lot or the koyote,

but those i know that use them tend to skip a size as the range is apparently impressive.

i wouldn't mind moving to burrum heads. i think i'm in love. it's a sad emo kinda love though as i know i'll miss her.
mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
5 Apr 2009 9:20pm
You used to walk into shop at start of season and go right i want new race sails 5.5-7.5m say and you'd walk out with your 3 new sails without any regard for geometric series. 1m gaps was just what you did, it worked well and supposedly sails have a greater range now than they did back then.

Geometric series is a good argument if you are getting all sails within the series but that is rarely the case, I suppose it does make scaling the sizes alot easier.
stehsegler
stehsegler
WA
3580 posts
WA, 3580 posts
5 Apr 2009 7:34pm
I have to agree somewhat... 5.3, 4.7, 4.2 seems to be a no brainer combo for me.

I think the problem is that some brands now build sails specific to their team riders (same seems to go for boards). I found that unless the team rider who's sail/ board I am buying has a similar style/ weight/ height what I like / I am the sails/ boards pretty much don't work for me.

That said, I am on the heavier end of the spectrum and honestly most brands suck a.s big time. I think they are loosing a lot of people out of the sport in that segment. I have been tempted by kiteboarding many times... simply because there seems to gear more targeted to my weight and height in kiteboarding than there is in Windsurfing.

I think brands have done a lot in the beginners segment. I now think it's time to do more in other segments of the sport.

Another pet peeve of mine is the way the whole windsurf industry operates as a whole. The fact that we buy a product which can not be recycled, is highly toxic and likely to fall apart if used a lot within in 3 to 5 years doesn't gel well with a sport which is so reliant on nature.

Why is it that I can't buy a board/ sail setup, pay a fixed price per season hand it back after 1 or 2 years and get a brand new board. The manufacturer then recycles what I handed back.

Doesnt' work? Too hard? The market doesn't want it?

Empty excuses... If that was all true than cars would still be made out of 5 mil steel.
ka43
ka43
NSW
3105 posts
NSW, 3105 posts
5 Apr 2009 10:31pm
As a slalom/speed sailor (and sometimes wave sailor when its blowing 20+ knots, how embaressment) I wish sail makers would go with the 0.5 on all ranges and make sails go from eg/ 4.0 4.5 5.0 5.5 6.0 6.5 etc etc.
Then again so why not 4.2 4.7. 5.2 5.7 6.2 6.8 etc etc.
Geez, I'm glad I know what I'm talking about!!!!
Bloody wankers who comment on stuff they know nothing about
greenleader
greenleader
QLD
5283 posts
QLD, 5283 posts
5 Apr 2009 10:48pm
if they all actually measured correctly "between" and often "in" brands and models that would be a good start'

i can roll out a dozen 5.8 sails on top of each other and they are all different sizes give or take .3 of a meter. doh

sailmakers = stoners or really gifted artists.

please explain?

in these days of computer programs it couldn't be that hard to get it right!
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
5 Apr 2009 11:40pm
greenleader said...

if they all actually measured correctly "between" and often "in" brands and models that would be a good start'

i can roll out a dozen 5.8 sails on top of each other and they are all different sizes give or take .3 of a meter. doh

sailmakers = stoners or really gifted artists.

please explain?

in these days of computer programs it couldn't be that hard to get it right!


What!!?? They LIE to us? Can this be true?
Windxtasy
Windxtasy
WA
4019 posts
WA, 4019 posts
5 Apr 2009 9:59pm
NotWal said...

That's dumb Mark.
They have to be in geometric series (not incremental) so they can have a rational range from which you can pick your particular preferred sub-range.

If you size all the sails in a range in a geometric series with a common ratio of say 1.117 you may get for example :-
3.4 3.8 4.2 4.7 5.3 5.9 6.6 7.4 8.2 9.2
- each size the same proportional difference from the one before.
If you size them in .5 sqm increments the same range would look like :-
3.4 3.9 4.4 4.9 5.4 5.9 6.4 6.9 7.4 7.9 8.4 8.9 9.4
And the spaces would be proportionally wider at the bottom of the range than the top.




Geometric series is definitely the way to go.
Where does the 1.117 ratio come from?

mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
6 Apr 2009 11:55am
So ka43 what sails do you have, how are they spaced and is it perfect? Geometric spacing is a great concept yet it seems brands can't agree what that spacing should be? If it was the answer shouldn't all brands have landed on the perfect spacing and all brands be producing the same size.

Geometric spacing is just more bs introduced into this sport to make money and the sport as a whole wonders why more people aren't attracted yet they continue to make it more complex. But hey anything to make the sail makers life easier so that his wonderful 5.8 is scaled to a perfect 8.3.

How much of this is psychological given that alot of the arguments are about a piece of cloth the size of a teatowel... and you can tell the difference? As greenleader said there is alot of variation on exact sizing. Minimum there is 0.1m variation on most brands so with the example earier 4, 4.2, 4.5 wouldn't you be a bit pissed if you've spent $800 on a new sail and the difference is? I also see it all the time same as greenie why last year we laid my 8.8 over a different brands 8.3 and f*ck me there was no difference. Makes sense then to order a 5.3 and a 5.8 knowing they could be as little as 0.2m difference between your two sails (which you've also forked out the $ for differences in masts) and that difference hidden in luff and boom lengths.

To further quantify the argument of geometric spacing lets take a look at the history of windsurfing sails (race sails only as I actually admit wavesails should have a bit closer spacing say 0.4 but hey it's not a perfect world). So early 90's- the most popular era for racesails ever... sails are spaced at 0.5m. It then changed to suit racing requirements with two ranges being bought depending on where you wanted your sail biased biased with sails from 5.5-6.8 having a twin. Sail ranges combined, then sails developed alot more range. 0.5 spacings kicked around for a while until geometric spacing became the norm. Odd then that just when sails developed more range that the spacings between sizes became smaller.

In 1994 I would have said to you there is a huge difference in range between my 5.5 and my 6.5 Neilpryde MkIII's. In 2008 I say my 5.8 and 7m can probably be spaced a little further apart if I wanted but I know that if I want the best performance between two sails without them being so close that i am d*cking around between choosing sizes then 1m spacing is still the way to go.

This is actually all trivial to me, the thread came from discussions i've had with other sailors who obviously have nfi what they are talking about either and that in ordering my sails in the past I've always tried to aim for that 1m spacing apart from wavesails where I go that bit closer together. Most have already posted that they have more sails than I do, even with being extravagant in having a sail for speed. Oddly having reduced the number of sails I need to just 3 my tow hasn't decreased.

Seems the only wankers are those that pass judgement on others without ever having sailed, met or talked to them. I'm not a professional windsurfer or a sailmaker so I guess this thread shouldn't exist ay and that goes for 99% of threads. God forbid that anyone would question the state of the world, everyone should obviously stick to knowing their trade as it's what they do. Anyway i'm off to contribute to the sport and take a poll at the beach to see how exact people put their fins in fin boxes I don't know why since having studied hydrodynamics I suspect a more useful question should be is it wise to fill the gap around the fin .
Poida
Poida
WA
1922 posts
WA, 1922 posts
6 Apr 2009 10:07am
4.5 5.0 5.7

took me twenty years to work those three numbers out

or if i had lots of money

4.0, 4.2, 4.5, 4.7, 5.0, 5.3, 5.5, 5.8 and a F250 truck to carry it
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
6 Apr 2009 2:25pm

Measurement of area.
Is there a standard for this? Is the luff tube included? Is the area measurement the projected area or the planar area? Last time I saw (windsurfing) sails being measured many were 5% difference in planar area to what is written on the sail.

Curious minds...

JB
lordhowe
lordhowe
NSW
209 posts
NSW, 209 posts
6 Apr 2009 2:56pm
'Curious minds...

JB'

...not enough wind?
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
6 Apr 2009 3:49pm
Nope - work is in the way of me being on the water today.

:-(
zacd
zacd
VIC
103 posts
VIC, 103 posts
6 Apr 2009 5:41pm
I think you will find that the monofilm and x-ply shrinks as it gets older. I would not be suprised if a brand new 5.0 was the same size as a 2 year old 5.3 of the same brand assuming they were measured the same way
CJW
CJW
NSW
1731 posts
CJW CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
6 Apr 2009 7:52pm
Depends on sailmaker I guess. I'd imagine they all design their quivers with each sail overlapping a tiny bit so the whole range is covered. Unfortunately their idea of the best quiver might not fit in with yours. They probably would also design the range so mast sizes are covered quite evenly, well they should.

It's pretty rare to find a sail maker (in wave sails) that doesn't offer at least 4.5, 4.7, 5.0 and a 5.2/.3 . Certainly pryde, north, severne, ezzy...list goes on do. Pryde have gone away from this a little bit with the Fly but I assume the sizes they offer cover the range well. 5.5 seems a size that is not as often made, it's more likely a 5.6/.7

I run 4.2, 4.7, 5.2, 5.8 and there are more options in between offered. I run a 5.2 as opposed to the common 5 because it rigs on a 430, so better spread of mast usage. IE; 430 = 5.2, 5.8, 400 = 4.2, 4.7

I also find that the 5-4.5 gap is a bit odd. The 4.5 is getting down there in sail size and I personally find a 4.7 a more useable sail than a 4.5, on the east cast anyway. I find the difference between a 5-5.2 less noticeable.
gazza
gazza
WA
647 posts
WA, 647 posts
6 Apr 2009 7:08pm
im currently using a 4.1 a 4.7 and a 5.3 all rigged on a 4m mast
im 70kgs use a high rockered 75lt twin fin and can sail from 15 knts to whatever!!

alot depends on the sails as my 5.3 is a powerful as my old 5.5

i reckon start with the biggest sail you want to use then work your way backwards from there

the less sails you own makes it so much easier to make the right decision

we've all seen them at the beach with the wind monitors saying "should i use the 4.8,5.0 or 5.2"
CJW
CJW
NSW
1731 posts
CJW CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
6 Apr 2009 9:25pm
gazza said...

we've all seen them at the beach with the wind monitors saying "should i use the 4.8,5.0 or 5.2"


This proves quite amusing to me also :)

Paul
Paul
WA
346 posts
WA, 346 posts
6 Apr 2009 8:50pm
Just based on wave sails here - the more you have the more you fuss about deciding what to rig. Then you decide to change size more often. Then at the end of the session you realize you wasted alot of sailing time, rigging.
This summer I had 4.2, 4.5, 4.7, 5.0 and 5.3 and of the last three sails seemed to just rig the same size every time and tuned it to the conditions. I had to remember to use the other sizes for the sake of it.

Most of the race sail sizing is one-up-manship, with one brand trying to be a bit bigger than the rest for race result bragging rights. With wave sails I think the 4.5 and 5.0 or 4.7 amd 5.3 combo is valuable for different weight sailors.

I agree with what stehsegler was suggesting, for a change, on both his points. Not having more enviro friendly products and the size issue for bigger guys.
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