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Slalom Foil sails for regular slalom

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Created by cris21 3 months ago, 21 Nov 2023
cris21
WA, 36 posts
21 Nov 2023 3:49AM
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Hi, I know that if slalom sails could be used for foiling is a topic that has been discussed a lot before but i was curios about the other way around, foil sails for regular slalom. As most of new slalom sails become more higher aspect than previous generation foil sails i was wondering how a foil sail let say a NP Flight EVO 8.0 or Severne HGO 9.0 would perform against a new slalom sail of the same size with the same board and flat water. I like the idea of less back hand pressure and maybe more control.

powersloshin
NSW, 1646 posts
21 Nov 2023 7:50AM
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Naish Lift RN is good for both

cris21
WA, 36 posts
21 Nov 2023 4:53AM
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Select to expand quote
powersloshin said..
Naish Lift RN is good for both


yeah i saw that one and the one from Nico but was trying to get feedback from regular riders and possibly larger sails.

Ben1973
906 posts
21 Nov 2023 6:55AM
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Works fine but some foil sails have a lower foot which may catch and foot strap, water when jybing ect

Maddlad
WA, 826 posts
21 Nov 2023 8:49AM
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Yep as Ben says above they work but with a lower foot you need to sail them a little more upright and can catch when gybing if you're not aware

cris21
WA, 36 posts
21 Nov 2023 10:37PM
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so the lower foot of the sail is the only issue? what about the power point and draft of the sails?

bel29
253 posts
22 Nov 2023 12:25AM
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it's not just the foot; besides which, I think the deep foot is a bit of a thing of the past, or at least is a feature of foil course racing as opposed to foil slalom racing sails.

regardless, my foil slalom sails don't have a noticeably deeper foot than my fin slalom sails (duotone warp). that said, there are clear differences:
-draft position: higher, further forward on foil sails
-entry: much more camber on fin sails
-profile: much flatter profile on foil sails
-loose leach: more looseness on fin sails
-outline: higher aspect on foil sails
-cam pressure (although this is adjustable): less on foil sails (for smoother exit from the foil gybe)
-weight: foil sails noticeably lighter

on the water, I'd say the main difference is that the fin sails generate more low end power, provide more lift to rail the board on the fin (which is way further back on the board than the front foil wing) and probably have slightly better high end range (more tension in the sail, more cam pressure, so a much more blocked profile)

all that said, I'm sure you can use a foil race sail on a fin slalom board (and vice versa). it would just be less efficient.

cris21
WA, 36 posts
25 Nov 2023 4:05AM
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bel29 said..
it's not just the foot; besides which, I think the deep foot is a bit of a thing of the past, or at least is a feature of foil course racing as opposed to foil slalom racing sails.

regardless, my foil slalom sails don't have a noticeably deeper foot than my fin slalom sails (duotone warp). that said, there are clear differences:
-draft position: higher, further forward on foil sails
-entry: much more camber on fin sails
-profile: much flatter profile on foil sails
-loose leach: more looseness on fin sails
-outline: higher aspect on foil sails
-cam pressure (although this is adjustable): less on foil sails (for smoother exit from the foil gybe)
-weight: foil sails noticeably lighter

on the water, I'd say the main difference is that the fin sails generate more low end power, provide more lift to rail the board on the fin (which is way further back on the board than the front foil wing) and probably have slightly better high end range (more tension in the sail, more cam pressure, so a much more blocked profile)

all that said, I'm sure you can use a foil race sail on a fin slalom board (and vice versa). it would just be less efficient.

thanks for the explanation, is there any benefit of using or type of conditions in which a slalom foil sail could work better than a regular fin sail? i know its not only about the shape but i feel like higher aspect sails could be easier to handle because of less back hand pressure

bel29
253 posts
25 Nov 2023 5:10AM
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maybe for a light weight rider?

aeroegnr
1450 posts
26 Nov 2023 2:24AM
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Not quite a slalom foil sail but a foil sail (foil glide 7.0) on a 145 Blast.

My impressions: getting the board planing felt like the pressure was in the wrong place vs my cheetahs. I think it may have been something I could have trimmed it for. Once moving it didn't seem to matter as much and felt pretty stable. I don't think I got overpowered on it in fin mode.

Was fairly well behaved when I went out of the protected area and was getting a little air off some 2-3ft swells.
I did suffer the consequence further up on the thread though of getting the foot caught in the jibe. Didn't even realize it was happening, just sheeted in and found I couldn't move the sail past the straps and ended up well downwind and fell backwards very awkwardly.

I like it a lot more on the foils but today I was getting overpowered with this sail and a 725/105+ foil setup and figured I could just fin until it calmed down.



aeroegnr
1450 posts
1 Dec 2023 7:40AM
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Somewhat related. Here is a 7.5 gator on top of an 8.0 foil glide. You can definitely see the difference in the foot, as it looks like most of the area is there. I tried to line up the luffs.

I don't have a cammed fin sail to compare with but I definitely would be curious.


BSN101
WA, 2227 posts
2 Dec 2023 1:32PM
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Nico Prien was using NP foil sail while he was waiting for fin sails to come to him. I tried a no cam foil sail on the fin and hated it. It foiled really nice. My cam fin sails get more use on the foil and I luv them on both.Im yet to try a race foil sail, might have to make it happen soon

Basher
521 posts
2 Dec 2023 2:44PM
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bel29 said..
it's not just the foot; besides which, I think the deep foot is a bit of a thing of the past, or at least is a feature of foil course racing as opposed to foil slalom racing sails.

regardless, my foil slalom sails don't have a noticeably deeper foot than my fin slalom sails (duotone warp). that said, there are clear differences:
-draft position: higher, further forward on foil sails
-entry: much more camber on fin sails
-profile: much flatter profile on foil sails
-loose leach: more looseness on fin sails
-outline: higher aspect on foil sails
-cam pressure (although this is adjustable): less on foil sails (for smoother exit from the foil gybe)
-weight: foil sails noticeably lighter

on the water, I'd say the main difference is that the fin sails generate more low end power, provide more lift to rail the board on the fin (which is way further back on the board than the front foil wing) and probably have slightly better high end range (more tension in the sail, more cam pressure, so a much more blocked profile)

all that said, I'm sure you can use a foil race sail on a fin slalom board (and vice versa). it would just be less efficient.


This is a good list, but there's maybe some more.

Note that we sail foils and fin boards in a different way, and that means the sailor's stance is different on each board.

1) On a slalom fin board we accelerate the board up onto the plane and fin lift eventually allows the board to 'fly' off the fin and tail of the board. That acceleration process means we rake the rig back more as we get going fast, and so less sail foot is needed.
The fin sailor also pushes sideways on the fin and holds the rail of the board down, and that is easier when the drive of the sail is set low down.

2) On a foil board, the foils give vertical lift and the sailor stance over the board is more upright - as that allows sailor weight to be applied downwards. The foil board is either up on the foils or not, and so there is less rig rake change as we get going, meaning the sail can be cut with a much lower foot to 'close the gap' . The upward pressure from the foil can also benefit from the drive being set higher in the sail. And this, in theory, means a different cut to the sail, in terms of draft position and tightness of the leach.

3) The third issue is highly complicated, and that's about sheeting angles for the rig. In all sailing and windsurfing we sheet to apparent wind, which is a combination of the 'true wind' of the day and the' created' wind which is a function of board speed. Created wind is like the wind you feel when you stick your hand out of the window of a moving car, and on a board that created wind always runs nose to tail , whereas the true wind of the day flows at an angle across the board, with that angle depending on our course direction. Foil boards tend to get going in much lighter winds, and that means the created wind is often a higher proportion in the apparent wind that we sheet to. So in other words you can stay sheeted in hard, even when heading well off the wind. It's that difference in the typical sheeting angles that means the optimum cut for a foil sail is very different from a typical racing slalom sail. The typical foil sail used in lighter winds is higher aspect, with a longer luff length.

4) There are however plenty of standard cut sails that will fit foil gear as well as slalom gear, and you just rig them a bit differently for each use. For foiling you might rig the sail with less downhaul to create a tighter leech, and you might also set the extension longer, just to get the sail set higher off the deck of the board. Having the 'wrong' type of sail won't stop the fun, and it's only at the top/professional level of racing, or where going for GPS speed records, that you absolutely need a dedicated sail.

PhilUK
878 posts
2 Dec 2023 11:50PM
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powersloshin said..
Naish Lift RN is good for both



Is it? Have you tried one?
"the foil depth is really shallow and designed to be pumped up to speed"
For fin sailing, even blasting on fast freeride boards, no thanks.

ps 55% off the price of whats left and they dont seem to be carrying the sail forward to next year.



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"Slalom Foil sails for regular slalom" started by cris21