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Who is inventor of loose leech?

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Created by Nubie > 9 months ago, 8 Apr 2019
Nubie
70 posts
8 Apr 2019 5:59PM
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Who and when first time design loose leech on windsurfing sail?

joe windsurf
1480 posts
8 Apr 2019 6:08PM
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my understanding is that it was an accidental find
by Barry Spanier and Bruce Peterson together

in my notes it was with Gaastra testing ADTR in the desert in 1987
without Barry

joewindsurfer.blogspot.com/2007/03/history-of-windsurfing.html

scottydog
230 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:10PM
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I sort of remember it being a Gaastra thing. Remember this vid where they discuss the merits also at 2:15.

Back in the 90's I bought a secondhand beautiful looking 4.5m North Race sail to add to my NP quiver. I was only a year or two into windsurfing at that point, but man I hated that sail! There was absolutely no twist, so when overpowered would just get slammed to windward in the gusts! Put me off ever buying a North sail for the rest of my life!! The NP's were so loose leached and being a real lightweight meant could really control the sail and didn't need a lot of grunt. I learned how to gybe very quickly and put that down to having sails that I didn't need to muscle.

Pacey
WA, 525 posts
8 Apr 2019 9:59PM
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That would be J. P. siren at the Weymouth Speed Trials in 1982, which I think he won. Large roach with massive twist, when a lot of competitors had pin-head sails. Sailmaker was ITV




elmo
WA, 8659 posts
8 Apr 2019 10:37PM
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issuu.com/windsport/docs/windsport28-1online
Page 68-69 down the bottom of the page

Nubie
70 posts
8 Apr 2019 11:36PM
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I find here that Berry first design cutaway 1984 which was first way how to make loose leech.

www.americanwindsurfer.com/articles/monty-spindler-maryland-yankee-in-europe/

LeeD
3939 posts
9 Apr 2019 12:28AM
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1st production sail with loose leech might have been TrevorBaylis designed Waddel Sails. 1985 models.

Nubie
70 posts
9 Apr 2019 2:52AM
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soon we have 10 inventors

LeeD
3939 posts
9 Apr 2019 3:36AM
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Actually, it was the Russians who invented twist in the sail.
Or was it Chubby Checkers?
Oh wait, it was the Chinese, who were first in everything according to them.

Chris249
357 posts
9 Apr 2019 4:33AM
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Select to expand quote
Pacey said..
That would be J. P. siren at the Weymouth Speed Trials in 1982, which I think he won. Large roach with massive twist, when a lot of competitors had pin-head sails. Sailmaker was ITV





That sounds right. I actually remember Gaastra as being a bit late onto the extreme twist idea, perhaps because it's not so important in World Cup racing.

Nubie
70 posts
9 Apr 2019 5:15AM
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Chris249 said..

Pacey said..
That would be J. P. siren at the Weymouth Speed Trials in 1982, which I think he won. Large roach with massive twist, when a lot of competitors had pin-head sails. Sailmaker was ITV





That sounds right. I actually remember Gaastra as being a bit late onto the extreme twist idea, perhaps because it's not so important in World Cup racing.


J.P. siren was sail designer for which brand?

What about cutaway?

Chris249
357 posts
9 Apr 2019 6:01AM
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Nubie said..
I find here that Berry first design cutaway 1984 which was first way how to make loose leech.

www.americanwindsurfer.com/articles/monty-spindler-maryland-yankee-in-europe/





But a cutaway wasn't the first way to make a loose leech, per se. Look at the amount of twist in these 1973 sails;



An open leach arguably isn't the "best" way to make a sail, anyway. It's the "best" in certain ways, in certain conditions, for certain types of sailing. If you change the conditions, the board style, the course style or the technology then it can be quite slow.

By the way, JP Siret's sail was before the cutaway. I can remember us looking at pics of it and saying "who would think that would work?" but realising that the simple fact was that his times showed that it DID work. However, tight leaches continued to dominate for some time in some areas of the sport, because they are a damn good way of generating maximum power for a limited area a lot of the time. JP was speed sailing, but that was a fairly small area of the sport at the time and required different sail designs than the slalom, Raceboarding, course racing etc many people were doing.

Sails of that time were pretty heavy and booms and mast were floppy, so adding area to get a floppy leach had obvious drawbacks. We also tended to sail in lighter wind a lot of the time, when a big floppy leach was just slow. We were very familiar with them because the first fatheads often flopped open in strong winds. And even slalom was often surf slalom, where a lighter sail and good low-end acceleration were important.

LeeD
3939 posts
9 Apr 2019 6:40AM
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1986, both Waddell and ART had cutaway twist top sails.

Pacey
WA, 525 posts
9 Apr 2019 9:05AM
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Nubie said..

Chris249 said..


Pacey said..
That would be J. P. siren at the Weymouth Speed Trials in 1982, which I think he won. Large roach with massive twist, when a lot of competitors had pin-head sails. Sailmaker was ITV






That sounds right. I actually remember Gaastra as being a bit late onto the extreme twist idea, perhaps because it's not so important in World Cup racing.



J.P. siren was sail designer for which brand?

What about cutaway?



Sorry, Jean Pierre SIRET, a sailor from Noumea.

Sail brand was ITV.

Waterloo
QLD, 1493 posts
9 Apr 2019 2:28PM
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I thought the first one we saw here was the Gaastra Rushwind Gorge Slalom LE? The amount of loose leech was a little limited with an aluminium mast.

shoodbegood
VIC, 873 posts
9 Apr 2019 8:46PM
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Sure it wasn't the Sydney 18 Footers ?

Early 80's, super bendy masts, I reckon that was the start of the "twist".

choco
SA, 3994 posts
9 Apr 2019 8:42PM
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Marlow, when they invented formuline

John340
QLD, 3038 posts
9 Apr 2019 9:55PM
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Optimist sailing dinghy with their gaff rig sails.

LeeD
3939 posts
10 Apr 2019 12:01AM
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I think Rushwind mentioned was 1990. Was Rushwind team rider in 1989 and got 2 protos that did twist by late july '89. Team sails usually get replaced mid season then. Monofilm signified the head twist sails.

Basher
522 posts
11 Apr 2019 8:19AM
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Well the question is a bit strange.
It is true that at some point windsurf sail designers realised they have been selling sails with tight leeches for many years, and that loose leeches could be faster or give better handling when over-powered.
But the 'loose leech' is connected with sail twist and with flat-cut sail heads - which had already existed for years in yachts and in racing dinghy sails.
So what actually happened is that someone realised our windsurf rigs could become more sophisticated and that mast bend (and therefore sail shape) could be controlled by downhaul tension. The discussion then gets more complicated.
So, my point is that you are possibly looking at this topic from a limited point of view.
The trend towards loose leech sails happened in all our rigs as a period issue, but recently the designers have backtracked because 'wasting' sail area at the head by sheeting it out is not always a good thing - and indeed freestyle sails and wave rigs are often set more tight-leeched nowadays, meaning we plane earlier with smaller rigs. For example, you won't find much luff panel tension in the rigs used in Bonaire for the PWA freestyle event this week. The tight leech is good for acceleration, and for maximising power generated from a small sail area.
In racing, light wind rigs also still have relatively tight leeches for those competing in non-planing conditions.
The loose leach is really at its best for over-sized rigs where the top of the sail is sheeted out as part of a rig 'exhaust' system for boards travelling at fast planing speeds.
Pick your tribe on this one, but the key moment was when we started using downhaul mechanics to control sail fullness and twist.

stehsegler
WA, 3450 posts
11 Apr 2019 8:20AM
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Who ... design loose leech on windsurfing sail?


Jimmy Leech?

Basher
522 posts
11 Apr 2019 8:27AM
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shoodbegood said..

Sure it wasn't the Sydney 18 Footers ?

Early 80's, super bendy masts, I reckon that was the start of the "twist".



When I was Moth world champion, my light wind sail was quite tight leeched but my windy weather rig had a looser leach and was cut much flatter to twist off at the head. (1970s).
But it's also key here to understand what you can do with a stayed mast on a dinghy or yacht, and what you can do with the un-stayed windsurf rig. In windsurfing our only mechanical controls are downhaul and outhaul, which work in conjunction with mast stiffness and mast bend.

Imax1
QLD, 4520 posts
11 Apr 2019 11:30AM
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stehsegler said..

Who ... design loose leech on windsurfing sail?



Jimmy Leech?


Lucy Leech ?

Sparky
WA, 1121 posts
11 Apr 2019 9:43AM
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^^^ Her unfortunate nick name was "Loose" Leech.

Pacey
WA, 525 posts
11 Apr 2019 10:28AM
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Basher said..
When I was Moth world champion, my light wind sail was quite tight leeched but my windy weather rig had a looser leach and was cut much flatter to twist off at the head. (1970s).
But it's also key here to understand what you can do with a stayed mast on a dinghy or yacht, and what you can do with the un-stayed windsurf rig. In windsurfing our only mechanical controls are downhaul and outhaul, which work in conjunction with mast stiffness and mast bend.


Well I was never a world moth champion, but I did once work for Frank Bethwaite, who told me that the top NS14 dinghys at the time used active batten rigs where the battens were stiff and used high tension, with the result that by down hauling the luff hard the battens would be compressed into the mast, bending the mast and freeing the leech dramatically. This allowed them to depower the rig in strong winds far more effectively than the more conventional rigs in use at the time.

I suspect that is also the source of the bendy 18 footer rigs that shoodbegood mentioned, this is when Julian Bethwaite first designed his own18 and started introducing several radical innovations, some of which culminated in the 49er Olympic class.

sailquik
VIC, 6066 posts
11 Apr 2019 12:50PM
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Basher said..
Well the question is a bit strange.
It is true that at some point windsurf sail designers realised they have been selling sails with tight leeches for many years, and that loose leeches could be faster or give better handling when over-powered.
But the 'loose leech' is connected with sail twist and with flat-cut sail heads - which had already existed for years in yachts and in racing dinghy sails.
So what actually happened is that someone realised our windsurf rigs could become more sophisticated and that mast bend (and therefore sail shape) could be controlled by downhaul tension. The discussion then gets more complicated.
So, my point is that you are possibly looking at this topic from a limited point of view.
The trend towards loose leech sails happened in all our rigs as a period issue, but recently the designers have backtracked because 'wasting' sail area at the head by sheeting it out is not always a good thing - and indeed freestyle sails and wave rigs are often set more tight-leeched nowadays, meaning we plane earlier with smaller rigs. For example, you won't find much luff panel tension in the rigs used in Bonaire for the PWA freestyle event this week. The tight leech is good for acceleration, and for maximising power generated from a small sail area.
In racing, light wind rigs also still have relatively tight leeches for those competing in non-planing conditions.
The loose leach is really at its best for over-sized rigs where the top of the sail is sheeted out as part of a rig 'exhaust' system for boards travelling at fast planing speeds.
Pick your tribe on this one, but the key moment was when we started using downhaul mechanics to control sail fullness and twist.




+1 on what he ^ said!

Pascal Maka, or whomever his sailmaker was at the time had something figured out by 1986. Maybe he took inspiration from Jean Pierre SIRET in 1982? If you watch this video - as I have dozens of times - you can see his sail has elements of much more modern sails in its shape. Flatter twisted head for sure. It is in stark contrast to most of the other sails in the video. He also broke the world record.




Mark _australia
WA, 22081 posts
11 Apr 2019 6:10PM
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Sparky said..
^^^ Her unfortunate nick name was "Loose" Leech.


Not unfortunate........ if you had the fortune to meet her

I had a great session, but definitely needed more outhaul to account for the looseness.

seanhogan
QLD, 3424 posts
11 Apr 2019 8:43PM
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Jean Piere Siret is a good mate, I remember, back in the days, telling him : "JP, your sail would look better with a loose leech"
So I guess that makes me the inventor !

PD
NSW, 67 posts
11 Apr 2019 9:01PM
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I covered the Aloha Classic for Freesail magazine in 1990. It was both slalom racing and wave sailing then.
Many of the competitors had prototype slalom sails that hung loose down the leach between the battens. They weren't described as loose leach. There wasn't a name for it. There weren't any slalom sails like them on the market. At first I thought they looked 'blown out' or maybe over down hauled. When I realised on the first day that this was the way they had been made, I asked around, 'Why do they work better? They don't look right'. No body had any explanation relating to the loose leach. I asked Rick Naish about them, what was the theory behind it? " What theory?" he said. "They just feel better." This was typical. The sailors didn't care why they were better. The sail makers may have known why these loose leach sails worked better, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, and it may have been an accidental discovery. Later that year I was in the Gorge and bought my first set of Sailworks race sails. They weren't loose leach.

LeeD
3939 posts
12 Apr 2019 1:33AM
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1990, monofilm was around and loose leech was accepted.
Gaastra sails of 1987 were tight leeched, but '88's were different with more luff curve and could be downhauled to loose leech but wasn't advertised as such.
Got dumped by Gaastra for '89 so switched to Rushwind dacron sails which rigged and sail BOTH ways so I had no clearcut idea which was best. Winds constantly change while you're in the water, and it takes time to sail back, locate your quiver, dodge the questions, and get back out there.

Nubie
70 posts
12 Apr 2019 2:03AM
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PD said..
Why do they work better? They don't look right'. No body had any explanation relating to the loose leach. I asked Rick Naish about them, what was the theory behind it? " What theory?" he said. "They just feel better." This was typical. The sailors didn't care why they were better. The sail makers may have known why these loose leach sails worked better, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, and it may have been an accidental discovery.









Discoverd by accident??? Are you kidding?
Did "SAILMAKERS" knew why they designed into sail?

What is today theory or this is still unknown!?



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"Who is inventor of loose leech?" started by Nubie