how large a sail would i need to get planing in 10knt winds on a 144 freeride board? I am about 90 kg and the board has a 44 fin at the moment. ant help welcome

Roger

Possibly even bigger, the 8.5 will need a pump or two perhaps

and a longer fin or would the 44 fin do for the time beeing?

for an 8.5m sail fins between 42cm and 48cm are the go. (depending on shape)

i used a 48 for light winds and a 42 for not so light and that was based on email advice from micah buzianis via mfc via windshack. that's not an absolute quote but a repeat from the memory banks.

so i bought both and it worked for me.

some of the guys in qld sit in the middle with a 44-46cm fin only.

by the time your on a 9+m sail you should be looking more around 48-54cm fins for freeride/slalom

edit* the mfc rc is a cracker of a lightwind slalom fin. not quite the top end of the rc2

yeah, back when i was 95-100kg i'd get the 95cm formula board going with an 8.5m and 70cm fin in 8 knots with pumping. by the time the wind was 10 knots i was more than comfortable and at 12 knots would be lit up and doing over 24 knots.

edit* even when i was on my formula kit vando would be going in 9-10 knots on his 8.5m and floaty slalom board. not many other people would though.

i also tried, pre formula, 140lt old school narrow slalom board with 70cm fins and 8.5m sails. the tail width was a killer. yes you could get going in light winds but the range was really limited and the boards would porpose as there was so much lift.

the tip to lightwind sailing is run your boom high and get your weight off the board by hiking out.

these days i can't be bothered in light winds and in anything under 10 knots use a 5,8m and muck around in the shallows

I had an 9.8m2 v8 and a large slalom board 52 cm fin. It's bottom limit for me was 10 knots. But it also depends very much on the type of sail freerace/race.

Agree with all above. 10knots is about the minimum to get planing unless on very big litre board, bigger fin and 10+m sail - i.e. formula kit. Sailing such kit is a different game altogether though and I did not really enjoy it myself.

I have a 7.8 north xtype which will get me going in 12knots minimum. It is a camless sail so can be frustrating as it will get going quicker than a cammed sail and it is a lot lighter, BUT then when getting back upwind and through the lulls it can drop off. Sometimes when its like that I just go back to shore and stick the rig on my SUP.
It feels really weird but I enjoy it a lot more than formula sailing and can just give me those few runs of satisfaction. Its strangely like surfing a longboard, everything feels slow but steady with the SUP.

Alternatively I rig a 6m and practice sail flicky stuff in such light winds. It did wonders for my overall sailing this year after 10 or so sessions back in spring (UK) when we kept getting marginal winds. By the middle of summer I was helitacking my 7.8 by acccident after bad tack entries on a board thats probably a bit small for the sail.

Wouldn't have thought that there is such a big difference between 10 or 12kts.
so would I be able to plane with a 8.5 and a 50 fin in 12 kts?

I was thinking about this today. Bit scary but better than thinking about work.

Rarely in my experience the wind comes at a constant speed and direction. It varies all the time. So its unlikely you will get a constant 10 knot wind. Its more likely going to vary by a reasonable percentage up and down from a 10 knot average. So you will get going in a gust of 12 or 14 knots and plan at 10 knots then drop off the plane in the 5 knot lull.

yes you would be able to plane with an 8,5m in 12 knots without any doubt, as you will also be able to plane with an 8.5m in 10 knots. less than that wind wise and i'd say at 90kg it's getting towards very very difficult without a bigger fin/board/sail.

local nemesis uses a 9m sail, 130lt board and 54cm fin. (or there abouts) he planes in less than 10 knots and he is 100kg sure he may use a 12knot gust to get going but he then sails through the 9 knots holes no problems.

formula sailors run 12m sails not so they can get planning. it's so they can beat everyone else on the course to the top mark and then to the bottom mark, the more power they have the higher into the wind they can sail and the lower off the wind they can sail. they are looking at vmg. it's not really relevant to weekend sailing.

that said,

light wind sailing requires more than just a big sail and long fin, you also need a wide board with a flatish rocker, good technique, pumping ability and a correctly rigged sail.

just letting off an inch of dowhaul won't work. yes it will get you going for the first 10-20m but after that your toast. you need to rig your sail for the apparent wind with enough twist to suit the apparent wind when planing. otherwise, your sail will have too much drag. usually that means your sail is not rigged for 10 knots as such. you need to pump onto the plane and then accelerate. when your speed increase, it increases the apparent wind which in return provides more lift. the faster you can sail in light winds the stronger the apparent wind will be. so even though you are sailing in 10 knots once planing your apparent wind will be higher than 10 knots.

that is the key really.

A 9m or an 8.5m sail won't make a massive difference other than a 9m WILL get you through the lulls better and give you a slight advantage in early planing in choppy water.

if you are still concerned see if you can demo a KA Koncept from somewhere, mag reviews and uses rave about there lightwind ability not to mention there other trophies.

I'm guessing i am the nemesis. I suppose I plane in 10 knots, I start sailing when my gauge is reading 10 but whether it's 8 knots or 12 knots on the water who knows. I never really look into it too much cause people comparing how little wind they sail in is like comparing d*** size, who cares you are either sailing or you're not. I can plane earlier than I care to, i'm just lazy and cant be bothered pumping too much. Light winds can be a bit of effort as you have to manhandle the rig and push the board a bit more... pumping onto plane and really pushing around in the gybes which can be hard as you are almost backwinded by the apparent wind. I find getting going in chop easier- hook onto that little swell or use the chop to unstick the board, but gybing/tacks and obviously boardspeed is a bit lower.

What I am for with my setup is to be planing on all angles so I am never struggling to make ground & thats what I think seperates the "I can plane in x knots" from those that are happily going in that wind. If you are bearing off and losing ground all the time to plane then it's not fun (or safe). That is why I use a big fin (55cm), to have good horsepower for speed that is why I use a big sail. I don't tune my gear for early planing more for good boardspeed at all angles which also brings about it's shortcomings for early planing- the bigger rig you have the more volume you need to carry it, lots of cambers and big luffs do not make this better. The whole weight/drag thing is why you see alot of guys get going on smaller gear but they will lose ground and will drop off the plane quickly.

So my suggestion is like others have said look for an 8.5-9m sail, if the slightly larger sail means you have to go up a size in mast or boom then stick to the smaller one cause the extra mast/boom adds a fair bit extra weight. Look towards a sail with 1 or 2 cams, most of these are made with weight saving in mind and a fair bit of grunt so just look towards your favourite brand (rig before you buy, deeper draft and slightly tighter leach is good for lightwind). If your board is a modern 144 freeride at approx 75 wide then go up to a 50cm fin. With big fins you just have to remember, particularly when powered up is to stay upright. Leaning out pushes sideways against the fin and it will bite back. Put your boom up a bit, I find waist harness makes it all a bit easier too. It is probably my harness line settings but I tend to hold onto uphaul with front hand a fair bit when the wind is light, it commits your body more yet stops you oversheeting, just results in a little more power in the sail.

The rest is just technique and practice. Hate to say it but the cheapest early planing tip is lose some weight. Formula gear has it's purpose but it is a bit of effort and I always found everything felt a bit strained and for what it is isn't especially early planing- some is though. If I had the $ then without a doubt my ultimate lightwind combo would be an 8.5m pryde helium on a jp superlightwind. I'm not too much into either brand but what they are trying to produce there should be supported.

My last tips- dont even bother trying to waterstart and don't drop the sail horizontal when gybing, same with tacks try to keep the sail as upright as possible. Apologies for the essay

yes mk i was referring to you as my nemesis. not realworld nemesis but seabreeze nemesis. [}:)]

forgetting the whole penis size debate one thing is for sure. being heavy sailors in qld over the years we have both experimented extensively with light wind windsurfing from slalom to formula to longboard to sup to large wave/freestyle boards and all of the rig and fin combinations inbetween.

at the end of the day they all have their sweet spot and all have a quite different fun factor, BUT they will all get you out on the water in light winds if you want to.

alright then a helium 8.4 it is going to be,a new booma nd fin and if it doesn't work I'll tell my wife it's all your faults

10 knots dude dont even bother!

mkseven said...

The pryde guide is aimed at 80kg sailor,

Yes and it seems their warranty is also

My NP wave sails specify a wind range for each sail and above that range they are 'not recommended to be used'
Too bad for heavyweights.

So.....a 60kg woman is covered by warranty in the waves whilst doing double forwards, but a 100kg guy doing B&J at a flat ocean spot is not cos he'll be in considerably more wind (on that sail size)?

Gestalt, no I do not have a NP mast. my mast is a loft 460. What I like with the sail is that it rigs on a 460 mast instead of me having to buy a longer mast aswell besides all the other gear. What other sails would be recommendable?
and to buster anything that gets me out on the water will do even in 10 kts. as long as there is a glimmer of hope I'll try it