what size for what conditions?

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big flatus
big flatus
WA
37 posts
WA, 37 posts
14 Mar 2005 10:45am
This is for wave boards and wave sailing! I see 65kg guys on say 65 litre boards and 4.7's and 85 kg guys on 85 litre boards and 5.5's out in the same conditions yet the lighter guys seem to get planning earlier. Then on lighter days the 65kg guys can then get on 80l and 5.8's and still get going.
So what I want to know is. Is there a formula for body weight to board and sail size as the wind gets lighter? Is it a proportional percentage increase ? Any ideas ?
Could we get a database of your weight and the equipment you use SUCCESSFULLY in different conditions?
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
14 Mar 2005 7:07pm
Not sure of this but I'm pretty sure, sailor weight, sail size, and buoyancy are straight percentages, ie 77 kg sailor is 10% heavier than a 70 Kg sailor, so he/she needs a 10% bigger sail and board, to be similarly powered, I think wind power/speed is logrithmic thou.

For your data base I'm 70kgs, use a 90l board from 12 to 15 knts with a 5.3. (I don't like using a big sail in surf, probably my technique, but I'm always getting the clew caught in the lip, plus the extra weight reduces manurverability) so I'm not planning, but can comfortably grovel upwind, and pick up waves early enough. below 12 knts, the sail becomes an airbrake, unless it's very side shore, or side off.
15 - 20 knts an 80l board and still the 5.3
above 20knts a 75l high rocker board, 4.7 to 3.7 sail depending how much over 20knts.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
14 Mar 2005 7:23pm
Afterthought,
You probably need to factor rider ability into the equation somehow.
I've been sailing for over 15 years, but am now 60, so my concession to age is a little bit more buoyancy than a younger person might use. When the wind drops off, I don't want to be up to my knees in water.
Davo87
Davo87
WA
139 posts
WA, 139 posts
14 Mar 2005 8:39pm
Yeah i think ability and preferences play a huge role in what size gear people use in the waves. Also i think the style of waves (ie dutchies vs margarets) play an equal role in gear selection. Apparently most of the top wavesailors at Hookipa will go out on 70litres in 15 knots even if there 80kg+ just for the extra manouverability on waves.

I would imagine it would be reasonably proportional but one thing you might have to factor in is that some brands vary board rockers/vee/tail width through the same line. Pretty sure the starboard acids are like this. The bigger models might have flatter rocker and wider tails for more lightwind performance.

I weigh 75kg, use an acid 70 with 4.2-5.4 and in fast waves will first go out in about 15knots and crappy waves maybe 18-20 knots. I really dislike using large gear, the biggest waveboard i've used succesfully was 83 litres
bluejuice
bluejuice
WA
334 posts
WA, 334 posts
14 Mar 2005 10:41pm
At 84kg I use a 88litre board 56cm wide for 18knts plus with 4.5, 5.0 and 5.5 I overlap this with a 90ish litre 59cm wide twin fin fish board and 5.5 + 6.0m for 15 to 20 knts.

(But after looking at some of greenies post I'm feeling inpsired to cut down the centre of the board from nose to tail and add a 10cm wide chunk of foam just to increase the width of the board for very light days)
Bertie
Bertie
NSW
1351 posts
NSW, 1351 posts
15 Mar 2005 1:54am
i read somewhere b4 this equation is a cubed squared relationship.
i think i recall power generated by the sail is proportional to the square of the winds velocity and the cube of the sail area. and there would be a very similar relationship (if not the same but with a different proportionality constant) for the drag produced by the board and the power required to get planing. (i'm no aeronautical engineer... yet anyway)

i think if u searched on google groups in the rec.windsurfing group you might find it.

But as decrepit said rider ability does play a part along with a comfort factor (i personally dont mind sailing with my board mostly underwater. as long as i can waterstart then its windy enough.
The big problem with ur database idea is that we cannot measure the windspeed or wave height with any real accuracy, and how do u determine successful? Too many variables in my opinion. U really need to work it out by guess and check.

just my 2cents worth.
Bertie
big flatus
big flatus
WA
37 posts
WA, 37 posts
15 Mar 2005 9:52am
I suppose I should have put down what I use in my 1st post sorry about that at 86kgs I use one board a Bluejuice custom 88 litre early planning board. For 20 to 25 knotts a 4.7, 18 to 23 5.2, 15 to 20 a 5.7, but usually anything under 16/17 knotts I just sulk and don't go out.
I suppose their are too many variables for an acurate formula but at least it would give others a rough guide and I would still like to work out how much bigger the big guys have to go to be planning as early as the lighter guys in the same conditions.
jonesmb
jonesmb
QLD
77 posts
QLD, 77 posts
15 Mar 2005 11:54am

I wish lift went up with the cube of sail area changing from a 5 to 6m^2 would then provide 75% more lift in a given wind speed unfortunately its only linear and changing up gives me only a 20% boost.

Lift=0.5*density*C_L*velocity^2*Area
Drag=0.5*density*C_D*velocity^2*Area

But experience tells us the above is not the full truth, the problem is C_L (coefficient of lift) is not a constant even for a given sail, obviously it changes with out haul/down haul settings but also changes with velocity, eg sail twists off C_L and C_D go down. Also and this is just my guess, I think bigger size sails are designed with higher C_L so when I change up I not only change area but also C_L and hence do better than the 20%. There's no magic formula for C_L, its an experimentally determined number at best it can only be estimated.
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
15 Mar 2005 10:30am
Me 92 kgs

10 -15 knots 125 lt wave board custom, 6.9 sail, sometimes put up my 7.5 slalom sail

15 to 20 95 lt wave board 6.2 wavesail

20 to 25 95 lt wave bd Stne Fish 5.5 Ezzy

20 -30 same bd, 4.7 naish

30 + either 4.2 or 4.7 on 8'6" Delta 80-85 Litres
Greenroom
Greenroom
WA
7608 posts
WA, 7608 posts
15 Mar 2005 10:37pm
im 65kg
75L F2 wave 250length 52wide 7.5kgs
5m ezzy
18-22knots
22+knots same board 4.2m ezzy

soon ill have
85L fish 235length 56wide 7kgs
5.8m ezzy
15-18knots
bluejuice
bluejuice
WA
334 posts
WA, 334 posts
16 Mar 2005 8:20pm
Hardman how wide is your 125l wave board in it's widest point and also 30cm from the tail?, Does it have a wave board rocker?, what is the minimal wind it can get planning in?

Greenroom were going to have no wind till the fronts[}:)]kick in at 30knts. So I guess you won't be using that fish till next season

Bloody Cheat
Greenroom
Greenroom
WA
7608 posts
WA, 7608 posts
16 Mar 2005 8:31pm
yeah sucks huh
i learn from the best bluejuice and that includes you too
bluejuice
bluejuice
WA
334 posts
WA, 334 posts
17 Mar 2005 10:32am
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
17 Mar 2005 7:18pm
Had a thought about Volume/planing area, and I think this is where heavier riders are disadvantaged.
Bertie was wrong about the square/cubed law relationship of wind/sailsize, but it does aply to planing area/volume. If length, width and thickness is doubled, planing area is squared but volume is cubed. so if we stick to the kg/l relationship between rider and board, the heavier riders are going to have less relative planing area.
Is this why big formula type boards look so thin?? They've increased the planing area but haven't cubed the volume.

Bluejuice,
Hardie's board is the one we were working on a few months ago. His original idea wasn't for a wave board, but a low wind ocean board, so it's not optimised for wave riding, but get's him out in the waves at very low wind speeds. It's 700mm at the widest point, and 8' 2" long (note the mix of imperial & metric), can't remember offhand what the 30cm tail measurment is, but it's very wide, Hardy converts it to a wave board by taking one of the rear foot straps off.
The tail rocker is slight but continuous, with almost wave rocker at the front. I saw it's wave potential while building it and made sure it had wave type rails, so it's not "snappy". But Hardie is getting the hang of throwing it around abit.
elmo
elmo
WA
8895 posts
WA, 8895 posts
17 Mar 2005 9:58pm
Still working on the "Tim the Toolman" aproach of Brute force and ignorance.

At the end of the day the experienced crew make it look rediclously easy (smug lot that they are) on small gear

Go with waht you feel comfortable with. don't be afraid to put up bigger gear than everyone else if you are chugging and they're not

Occasionally the fatty boombalata gear can get you out on the water when all else fails.
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
18 Mar 2005 8:07am
The 30cm width at back is 46cm, which is pretty wide, as it keeps flaring out from there.

The original brief of the board was light wind ocean and it excels in those conditions.

I thought that by building this design I could also dabble in the waves with it and have fun. But I have to admit in waves it's very technical, you have to be right back on the board to get it to turn. It turns from the rear footstrap leeward side, most rear position, very turny and loose but, a bit pivotty. When I put the foot straps in a more forward position it becomes harder to use in waves. I have to take my foot out of strap and onto rail as if in gybing, but is at much wider section of board and tends to bounce out on the bottom turn which is very frustrating.

What it does well, is cruise and speed in the ocean. It also jumps great and tacks easy. The rocker profile is perfect for this. It has a deep Vee and tracks like a train on tracks, doesn't bounce out until you wanna be on a much smaller board anyway., and planes in lightish winds. The width becomes very necessary in light winds with big sails, as you need as much leverage as possible, with the more inboard footstrap positions, you get pulled onto your toes all the time which is not relaxing sailing, but the most outboard strap positions make it sweet with big sails.

Starboard is releasing 2 light wind waves, called the Aero, 71 and 74 cm wide, 117, and 125 Lts. Apparently the hull is dead flat, which makes it loose, compared to my deep vee which makes it suck to the water. Rails on mine are pretty soft wavey rails, and the Aero has the EVO rails. Rocker profile will be interesting to note, and tail width also.

If I was to change the brief of the board and want more wave ridability, I would go flat bottom, thinner tail, and slightly more rocker, I think this would make it more wave friendly, however, it would lose some of it's early planing, straight line stracking at speed, and no longer feel comfortable carrying big sails.

There's no such thing as the perfect board, it's all costs and benefits.

One thing I forgot to mention was the idea of under the hull cut outs in the rear tail section of the board. I wonder how these might affect its turnability, I wonder if starboard will have them? Decrep and I didn't have a clue about these ideas so didn't even think about them, They may be necessary to get a wide tail board to turn??
rosey
rosey
NSW
575 posts
NSW, 575 posts
27 Mar 2005 2:10pm
im 60kg
in 15-25 i use 5.2 revolution
25+ i use a 4.4 revolution
seatren allstar 77l is the board that i use with both..hopufully a jp freestlyewave soon...
josh
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