Forums > Windsurfing General

wich is faster a kitesurfer or windsurfer?

Reply
Created by windwarning > 9 months ago, 18 Jan 2009
windwarning
VIC, 600 posts
18 Jan 2009 2:56AM
Thumbs Up

I know in light wind most of the time a kiter will be faster but i was out sailing rye in crapy wind a few months ago after i just got me new jp excite. and all the kiters were over taken me on me 6.5 no cam sail then the wind came up for about 20 min to 15-20 knots, and i got on a plane. i was like faster than all the kiters out there.

So got me thinking, i want a full on race against a kitesurfer in not light wind but say a good 15-20 knots of wind. where we start and finnish at the same spot.

Who has had a planned out full on race against a kitesurfer and who one?

Does anyone know what knots a kitesurfer can do in say 15-20 knots of wind?

cheers WATCH THE VIDEO MAYBE WE SHOULD COMBINE THE 2 TO BREAK THE SPEED SAILING RECORD



and this other vid might scare a kiter



lets hear a bit now from the master of speed Bjorn Dunkerbeck what he has to say



DAM they bet us to it.

hardpole
WA, 565 posts
18 Jan 2009 1:59AM
Thumbs Up

windwarning said...

I know in light wind most of the time a kiter will be faster but i was out sailing rye in crapy wind a few months ago after i just got me new jp excite. and all the kiters were over taken me on me 6.5 no cam sail then the wind came up for about 20 min to 15-20 knots, and i got on a plane. i was like faster than all the kiters out there.

So got me thinking, i want a full on race against a kitesurfer in not light wind but say a good 15-20 knots of wind. where we start and finnish at the same spot.

Who has had a planned out full on race against a kitesurfer and who one?

Does anyone know what knots a kitesurfer can do in say 15-20 knots of wind?

cheers





Falling from a tall building I suspect the windsurfer would be faster, I think the terminal velocity of the kite would be lower.

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
18 Jan 2009 2:53AM
Thumbs Up

If I'm planing, then I've never had a kiter overtake me.

Slogging well now that's a different story.

They are quick if they want to be, but only very very few have discovered the speed bug...

Arnold
46 posts
18 Jan 2009 3:24AM
Thumbs Up

nebbian said...

If I'm planing, then I've never had a kiter overtake me.

Slogging well now that's a different story.

They are quick if they want to be, but only very very few have discovered the speed bug...


Totally agree, only a specialist speed kite kit is fast and I have never seen any one using it, in really light/gusty winds most of the kites I see are sitting on the beach but I will be out having a blast on light wind windsurfing kit.

enicao
WA, 77 posts
18 Jan 2009 3:30AM
Thumbs Up

I'm a kiter, I have never been overtaked by a windsurfer when I tried to go fast. (of course I race windsurfers when conditions were good for me, and I don't know the level of windsurfer I raced with)

there are not many races between kiters and windsurfers because the windsurfers don't like kiters being too close. I'd like to race more

windsurfers are nearly always full speed
we don't kite for speed, we never go more than about half our max speed (when its 20knots or more) we have lot more things to do
to go fast means going downwind. about 110° to the wind. we already go downwind in every jump, surf and turn. so when q good kiter stay on water its for going upwind which is slower.
we also don't go to fast because its difficult to slow down, (jumping is a good way to slow down when real fast)
there is no kitesurf gear designed for speed in shops, if a kiter wants speed, he needs to buy/build custom boards. there are no kites designed for speed (in shops or customs)

windsurfers can go fast on choppy water, so you can go fast on every spots, kiters need very flat water to go fast, cause we need to edge the board. so on choppy water windsurfer wins. on flat water depends

kiters like 10cm (or less) deep water for speed.

there is also a problem for racing, we don't need the same angle of wind to go fast.

in australia the average kitesurfer is kiting for 1 or 2 years
the average windsurfer si windsurfing for way longer.

if anyone want to race...

pierrec45
NSW, 2005 posts
18 Jan 2009 6:57AM
Thumbs Up

Who cares about all this? I ride the car 60mph when I drive to windsurfing, which is faster than both, but I still windsurf 'coz it's fun. You guys just do the sport you like.

OceanBlue64
VIC, 980 posts
18 Jan 2009 11:02AM
Thumbs Up

Last weekend at Pt Henry I was doing around 26 knots average and there were a couple of kiters out where I was and they were doing similar speeds. Horses for courses I say. Cant compare apples with oranges

Ian K
WA, 4039 posts
18 Jan 2009 9:21AM
Thumbs Up

Was discussing this with a very good windsurfer who has become a very good kiter a couple of weeks ago. He said the potential speeds in chop are comparable but a kiter's legs tire quickly at speed due to the pounding of the chop. A windsurfer can sit on the tail and let fin flex take out the jolts associated with generating lateral force in choppy water.

Haircut
QLD, 6480 posts
18 Jan 2009 10:29AM
Thumbs Up

Robby Naish once said, "trying to go fast is geigh"

but personally, i didn't believe him

sharkbiscuit
820 posts
18 Jan 2009 9:44AM
Thumbs Up

Haircut said...

Robby Naish once said, "trying to go fast is geigh"

but personally, i didn't believe him


I came across this page a few months ago. Interesting reading, particularly
the selection of the geography and why it makes it a natural speed strip for
kites:

luderitz-speed.com/

enicao: Why is the angle 110deg for maximum speed ?. One would think that having the
kite directly downwind would achieve max speed ?. I assume it's to do with the design
of the kite and the way it's designed to release wind.

Ja

Brett Morris
NSW, 1197 posts
18 Jan 2009 7:21PM
Thumbs Up

I think kites have soo much more potential to go fast. Kites seem to cope with rougher water much better, which is one of the major issues with real speed.
Not sure what craft has the best speed sensation though?

Haircut
QLD, 6480 posts
18 Jan 2009 8:46PM
Thumbs Up

i found the speed sensation of kiting in normal chop similar to riding a hypersonic or an evo. You feel like you're going reeeaaaaaalllyy fast, until the people you normally overtake are overtaking you and then you realise just how slow you're going. i'm yet to kite on dead flat water so maybe it then feels different

windwarning
VIC, 600 posts
19 Jan 2009 1:04AM
Thumbs Up

enicao
WA, 77 posts
19 Jan 2009 3:20AM
Thumbs Up



enicao: Why is the angle 110deg for maximum speed ?. One would think that having the
kite directly downwind would achieve max speed ?. I assume it's to do with the design
of the kite and the way it's designed to release wind.

Ja



I was talking about the angle between the direction the kiter is going and the true wind
you can't keep the kite directly downwind, cause the kites keeps going forward until it reaches the edges of the window about 95 degrees of the wind (up and sides).
the only way to put the kite directly downwind is to do a kiteloop, which is the most power you can get of the kite. it just last 2 seconds.

sometimes the kite appear downwind of the kiter because you need to think about the "visible" wind a mix between true wind and speed of the kiter.

Who cares about all this? I ride the car 60mph when I drive to windsurfing, which is faster than both, but I still windsurf 'coz it's fun. You guys just do the sport you like.


of course, but that doesn't mean we can't race.

windwarning
VIC, 600 posts
19 Jan 2009 12:04PM
Thumbs Up

pierrec45 said...

Who cares about all this? I ride the car 60mph when I drive to windsurfing, which is faster than both, but I still windsurf 'coz it's fun. You guys just do the sport you like.


DUDE, DUDE you might drive 60 miles to the beach wich is a faster speed but on water 60- 70 ks feels like ya doing 300 ks. when i hit a speed strip in a inlet i sometimes sail at i scare myself by the speeds i hit for a few seconds i have to back off the power. 60 mph s in a car can never give you this feeling. cheers my friend

lalalamort
NSW, 160 posts
19 Jan 2009 12:29PM
Thumbs Up

So who can go faster? the Beatles on a windsurfer or the Stones on a Kite?

windwarning
VIC, 600 posts
19 Jan 2009 12:34PM
Thumbs Up

funny dude i like ya

aerohydro
NSW, 31 posts
19 Jan 2009 10:32PM
Thumbs Up

enicao said...


kiters like 10cm (or less) deep water for speed.



Why? Is there some wave-reflecting-off-the-bottom type effect happening?

enicao
WA, 77 posts
20 Jan 2009 6:08AM
Thumbs Up

aerohydro, its because there can't be any wave on water so shallow. so thats the best way to have dead flat water, offshore wind or not. when going fast kiter need 3cm of water (fins are 5cm, but the board is not horizontal)

I don't know if you know safety bay in WA, but there a big 10cm deep area, and its a dream to kite on

even if the wind is offshore, water is better when its shallow.
if a kiter crashes at high speed he won't touch the bottom in 10cm deep water.

you can see how shallow it is

aerohydro
NSW, 31 posts
20 Jan 2009 9:58AM
Thumbs Up

That's interesting. Since you say that even with an offshore wind shallow water is better, it makes me think that there could be some other effect occuring. Perhaps this is something not exploited by speed sailing before kites. Any ideas? Intuitively there must be some physical difference between skimming over a thin film of water and planing on deep, smooth water.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
20 Jan 2009 12:40PM
Thumbs Up

aerohydro said...

That's interesting. Since you say that even with an offshore wind shallow water is better, it makes me think that there could be some other effect occuring. Perhaps this is something not exploited by speed sailing before kites. Any ideas? Intuitively there must be some physical difference between skimming over a thin film of water and planing on deep, smooth water.


I recall this was a issue recently when 50 knots was broken. Can't recall details...

NotWal
QLD, 7426 posts
20 Jan 2009 12:10PM
Thumbs Up

Its "ground effect" from aerodynamics. Its the same thing in water. If the water is shallow it can't get out of the way so it provides more lift = less wetted area and less water to push around.

The critical depth is proportional to the width of the planing hull.

This is the reason that a wind speed sailing record authority (ISAF?) insists that the minimum depth for a sailboard record attempt must be 50 cm. (I could be wrong)

mkseven
QLD, 2309 posts
20 Jan 2009 12:11PM
Thumbs Up

enciao i'm sure myself and a few others here would be keen to see how quick you can go. Of course it will have to be in around 50cm of water, and sorry around here their ain't alot of flat water when it is that deep.

Cmon 10cm of water, why call it a watersport at all. Even my board speeds up when i'm riding the nose and get into 10cm of water or so... hardly a skill.

I've heard so much BS from ex windsurfers who have taken up kiting who feel they have to justify their choice of sport, in general in the chop no way will a kite keep up. In shallow water provided the kiter has become a specialist then yes they will go very very fast, but I haven't seen too many focusing on speed around here.

pierrec45 stick to your wallies mate, but then again who cares about all that.

Each to their own ay

enicao
WA, 77 posts
21 Jan 2009 12:05AM
Thumbs Up

NotWal said...

Its "ground effect" from aerodynamics. Its the same thing in water. If the water is shallow it can't get out of the way so it provides more lift = less wetted area and less water to push around.

The critical depth is proportional to the width of the planing hull.

This is the reason that a wind speed sailing record authority (ISAF?) insists that the minimum depth for a sailboard record attempt must be 50 cm. (I could be wrong)


we are talking a bit too much physics I think.
I don't really care how fast I go, I won't buy a GPS to now how fast I go. its just a number and numbers don't make me happy (except if its a big number on my bank account)

the ground effect is just a story to keep the kiters from being officially the fastest sailors, like the story about kiting is not sailing.

if you consider the wetted area is the area in contact with water, its always all the surface of the board, because the spray always cover all bottom side of the board.

if you consider the wetted area is the area below the average sea level, when going fast its so little: 3cm wide by 1m30 long max, the ground effect can't change that much.
and at high speed I don't think it change much.

I actually think if ground effect creates extra lift (kiter don't need extra lift), it must also creates extra drag, moving more water in front

the only physical advantage of shallow water is the wave breaks when the depth is some % of the wave height.

by offshore wind its good to be as close as possible of the water edge (often shallow, but not always) because there is less chop. when the wind is strong, chop creates in meters

and the wind is stronger 15 meter high (kite height) than 2m high (sail height), that another physics

and everyone use the physics they want. I can say hydrofoils are not sailing, because it use physics other don't. so the hydroptere didn't break any record

I could use the tunnel effect if i wanted (I don't know the real name).

why windsurfer don't use the tunnel effect: putting edges on your board, or making it concave to channel air under the board and create lift to reduce wet area. windsurfer could use it easily (maybe it exist, but I have never seen it)


nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
21 Jan 2009 12:22AM
Thumbs Up

enicao said...



I won't buy a GPS to now how fast I go. its just a number and numbers don't make me happy


"When the data drops, the bullsh!t stops..."

windwarning
VIC, 600 posts
21 Jan 2009 12:53PM
Thumbs Up

wont be over till the fat lady sings. its not really about us and the kiters anyway. its about every one all sail crafts to break tha new record now, that was set by the kite surfer. i know its just numbers and who cares but try telling someone back in the 1930s that a sail craft on water, will do 40-50 knots in the future. they would of laughed at ya and said keep dreaming son.

i think if ya told bjorn dunkerbeck it is just numbers you will make him one very angry dude.

i bet he is out there now on some speed strip trying to break the record as we speak.



so we have got to 50 knots, next 60 knots cant wait to see it on youtube

Haircut
QLD, 6480 posts
21 Jan 2009 7:54PM
Thumbs Up

i think bjorn must have stood on an oyster



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing General


"wich is faster a kitesurfer or windsurfer?" started by windwarning