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Build quality different brands, I can not make my Simmers last :(

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Created by onshoreroy 7 months ago, 20 Jul 2023
onshoreroy
44 posts
20 Jul 2023 10:23PM
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How long do you get and expect to get out of a new sail? I am a weekend warrior at best. I don't really crash on the water and rig up as carefully as possible behind a massive van or sheltered in the field and at best get 2 years out of my simmer sails before they get holes in them, where creases have formed. I spoke to someone at the beach who I have only really seen using a 5m Ezzy and it is 12 years old !!!! I have a 2017 Goya fringe which I keep at my caravan, use at the unfriendly rocky beaches and take on flights abroad it is in much better condition than my new simmers I have rigged twice which have creases in. Is this just me or are there brands that last longer? Trying not to slag the brand off, I have used chiefly simmer boards and sails for 10 years and love the performance, but I can not afford to replace them every 2 years.

aeroegnr
1450 posts
20 Jul 2023 10:59PM
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My 8.0 cheetah is still going with learning how to plane on it, with all the crashes, 3 years now. My 9.5 cheetah is in better shape but has less miles on it, and fewer crashes.
My severne blade is holding up for 2 something years. It's been taking some hits by a beginner and held up to what are to me crazy high wind days and associated crashes.
I've torn a severne hgo 9.0 to tatters after counting 100 sessions or so in two years with it and learning to race foil, with all the crashes, and bought a second hand one and have replaced a batten in it from my first sail. I'm probably somewhere around 125-150 sessions with that sail and the performance in that case seems to be worth it, given how much abuse and bad sailing I've given it
I think my other most used sail is the goya mark 6.6 that I totally crashed through, blowing out a panel, but it's repaired with tape and usable as a big sail for a beginner who is close to planing.

PhilUK
878 posts
20 Jul 2023 11:13PM
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Which sail? RDM or SDM?

onshoreroy
44 posts
20 Jul 2023 11:38PM
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PhilUK said..
Which sail? RDM or SDM?


RDM, Icons and black tips. Icons fail first because they are harder to rig, I think because of the luff curve ??? All legacy construction, I bought standard first and got rid of them.

PhilUK
878 posts
20 Jul 2023 11:55PM
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Probably. Sails with a lot of luff curve are harder to get the mast in/out without creasing. Probably why the Ezzy 5m lasted longer as they have low luff curve.
I've seen creasing a lot with locals using SDMs on freeride sails.

jdfoils
137 posts
21 Jul 2023 6:16AM
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Ezzy is the best!

init9999
NSW, 42 posts
21 Jul 2023 8:20AM
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I have an Icon, haven't owned it too long but love it - very powerful and stable. Can't see any issues with build quality but it is a pain to rig due to the luff curve - previously I have had 'hard top' sails and they are much easier to get the mast in the sleeve.

Sounds like I need to take extra care rigging to make sure no creases form, easier said than done when you are rushing to get on the water.

Stretchy
WA, 909 posts
21 Jul 2023 11:12AM
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Yep, unrigging in particular can be damaging. I have Simmer race sails on RDMs, about 4 years old and still going strong. I'm careful to avoid creasing when pulling the mast out, but it's easier with the wide luff sleeve. Can you secure the tip of your sail with a screwdriver in the ground to avoid scrunching your sail to get the mast out?

aeroegnr
1450 posts
21 Jul 2023 1:39PM
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For rigging, it seems like pulling the top above the luff cutout for the boom clamp next to the bottom of the opening seems to let everything go in quicker without creasing? I saw a video here somewhere and have been doing it since.
And for removal I think simply twisting and working the mast that way seems to be the most effective, but maybe there's another easy trick...

Mark _australia
WA, 22061 posts
21 Jul 2023 5:29PM
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^^^ yes and those two together will increase the life of your sail.
Its not Simmer, its your rigging and de-rigging technique sorry to say

Gestalt
QLD, 14076 posts
21 Jul 2023 8:08PM
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I've got blacktips, triceras and a vmax. 3-4 years old. I'm only a weekend warrior but they are solid sails built to last.
The only damage on them is from me.
Simmer is every bit as good as ezzy for strength and you get the added bonus of a sail that works. lol

GazMan
WA, 835 posts
21 Jul 2023 9:30PM
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PhilUK said..
Probably. Sails with a lot of luff curve are harder to get the mast in/out without creasing. Probably why the Ezzy 5m lasted longer as they have low luff curve.
I've seen creasing a lot with locals using SDMs on freeride sails.



I'm working on switching over to Ezzy's from another well known brand in most of my wave/freeride sail sizes below 6.0 coz unlike Ezzy's they're quite rigid setting sails with a lot of luff curve that I've found impossible to get the mast into without getting some of that scrunching concertina effect happening and require heaps of downhaul to set properly (unlike Ezzy's), though derigging is ok as all of my sails have a loop on the head to slide a screwdriver through which I firmly stake into the ground and reef the sail off from the foot, otherwise I'd need another person to help me derig (unlike Ezzy's!). Have used the same brand sails since around 2010 and the latest designs have become more rigid and need a lot more downhaul with the exact same masts than earlier ones

onshoreroy
44 posts
22 Jul 2023 12:36AM
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I have been obsessing over it, just rolled them all out and the black tips are in better nick than the icons. I can't figure out how to rig them without damaging them. The 5.6 icon is so hard to get a mast in.

De-rigging is not the problem because of the loop at the top.


I will go and practice now

Grantmac
1940 posts
22 Jul 2023 12:48AM
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I am on my second season with regular Black Tips, holding up as well as any sail.
Although I will say that Ezzy makes a bomber sail in the heavier models and attempts to compare probably won't be fair.

GazMan
WA, 835 posts
22 Jul 2023 10:41AM
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Mark _australia said..
^^^ yes and those two together will increase the life of your sail.
Its not Simmer, its your rigging and de-rigging technique sorry to say




Very true Mark though it's obvious that some sails are harder to rig and derig than others so even if you're really careful then they're going to deteriorate quicker than a sail that doesn't get scrunched every time the mast goes in!

GazMan
WA, 835 posts
22 Jul 2023 10:52AM
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Grantmac said..
I am on my second season with regular Black Tips, holding up as well as any sail.
Although I will say that Ezzy makes a bomber sail in the heavier models and attempts to compare probably won't be fair.




Fact is that all brands make sails that can be either keepers or rejects! I brought an Ezzy sail a number of years ago and didn't like it at all then offloaded it soon after, though currently using a 2012 Ezzy Tiger which has such a smooth power delivery and is a real gem of a sail! Always an issue knowing whether the sail you're forking out lots of $$$ on is a keeper or not!!!

robbo1111
NSW, 618 posts
24 Jul 2023 10:42AM
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If Dave Ezzy got rid of that ridiculous Tack Strap the whole world would be on Ezzy's

CBuzz
1 posts
4 Aug 2023 3:31PM
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If you want real longevity - absolutely no question, go for Ezzy.

I had some (Wave SE's) that lasted many years of solid use.

Then had a quiver of Simmer Blacktips - beautiful sails which I really liked - but nowhere near the lifespan of Ezzy (which I knew/accepted when I bought them). I had panel repairs in every one - and also on the 2 Simmer XC's that I also had - across a 5 year period. I never had to repair an Ezzy

Now on 2022/23 Goya Banzai's which are super high quality and I really love them and I think should be better than the Simmers in terms of lifespan .... I tend to change quiver every 4/5 years so expect these to perform.

But in short - if you want to keep them for a long time ( 5 years + ) - there is only one answer IMHO

sprayblaze
138 posts
5 Aug 2023 1:57AM
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CBuzz said..
If you want real longevity - absolutely no question, go for Ezzy.

I had some (Wave SE's) that lasted many years of solid use.

Then had a quiver of Simmer Blacktips - beautiful sails which I really liked - but nowhere near the lifespan of Ezzy (which I knew/accepted when I bought them). I had panel repairs in every one - and also on the 2 Simmer XC's that I also had - across a 5 year period. I never had to repair an Ezzy

Now on 2022/23 Goya Banzai's which are super high quality and I really love them and I think should be better than the Simmers in terms of lifespan .... I tend to change quiver every 4/5 years so expect these to perform.

But in short - if you want to keep them for a long time ( 5 years + ) - there is only one answer IMHO


There is no eternal sail-everyone would agree on that. Ezzy sails are synonym for longevity. I was on them for a couple of years pantheras and elites- yeah, good sails, a breed of their own really, but not so much impressed with durability. As a matter of fact the praised x-ply degraded faster than the ordinary monofilm of other brands. Goya Banzais are slick but the made in the usa biply window creases in an ugly way. Now I am on Simmer black tips. Skeptical in the beginning, now I love them. My recipe for sail longevity- select only single layered monofilm wave sails, never glued layered monofilms, x-plys,thick monofilms. All these degrade on UV faster than good old classic original monofilm-despite brand claims. Careful derigging (not rigging,notice). And of course avoid catapulting into it with the harness hook first. Cheers.

Manuel7
1206 posts
5 Aug 2023 7:49PM
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2 years usually from used sails, 3 from new ones unless using a single sail then it's 1,5 years. Left rigged though. (Rigging derigging would become problematic when they start to dry out.)

It seems that materials quality has lowered over the past few years.

OldGuy3
159 posts
6 Aug 2023 11:05PM
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What are causing the creases?

Outside of liking the feel of the Ezzy sails owned. Found them to be durable. Still using '12 Cheetah 6.5M. Luff sleeve has faded. Freshwater use only. Bit of mildew on the sail body around the lower two batten pockets has formed from storing wet. Rolled as tight as possible. Transported usually at the bottom of the stack of sails. Stored vertical with luff and vent end at the bottom with air space.

Maddlad
WA, 826 posts
8 Aug 2023 8:40AM
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I find the Neil Prydes last really well but they can be expensive to buy compared to some other brands.

sheddweller
219 posts
8 Aug 2023 3:41PM
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Maddlad said..
I find the Neil Prydes last really well but they can be expensive to buy compared to some other brands.

Last well compared to what?

philn
713 posts
8 Aug 2023 8:13PM
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sheddweller said..


Maddlad said..
I find the Neil Prydes last really well but they can be expensive to buy compared to some other brands.



Last well compared to what?



Crinkle paper?

Imax1
QLD, 4510 posts
9 Aug 2023 7:19AM
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philn said..


sheddweller said..




Maddlad said..
I find the Neil Prydes last really well but they can be expensive to buy compared to some other brands.





Last well compared to what?





Crinkle paper?



I think crinkle paper is longer lasting. Maybe I'm ham fisted because I tend to damage mine all the time.

Manuel7
1206 posts
9 Aug 2023 7:05AM
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A friend of mine got his neilpryde to last a long time. I don't believe he was out so often and always left it rigged up. The batten tensioners are weak though. The construction helps some but the quality of the materials is more important.

Imax1
QLD, 4510 posts
9 Aug 2023 9:41AM
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Those batten tensioners are incredibly fragile . They have been using this system for 20 years and still haven't made them in a more durable plastic. The system is great and there is no cost difference for using a different plastic. Fortunately they are easy to replace if you know how . I reckon on my sails I have replaced 30 over the years

Maddlad
WA, 826 posts
9 Aug 2023 8:58AM
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sheddweller said..

Maddlad said..
I find the Neil Prydes last really well but they can be expensive to buy compared to some other brands.


Last well compared to what?


Other brands. Im not going to name them because im not here to shame other brands, just let you know my experiences with sails.

boardsurfr
WA, 2177 posts
10 Aug 2023 6:58AM
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It's all in how you handle the sail (except for bad crashes). I always thought I handled my sails well, until a semi-pro who sold his quivers every year pointed out a key element I had missed: never put your sail on the ground while rigging or de-rigging, unless it is downhauled well or the boom is on. In addition, when putting the mast on or taking it out, minimize the creases in the sail. If you put a sail down, for example to get the mast extension from your car, you're just putting pressure on the creases, and shorten the life of your sail dramatically. It always pains me when I see people handle their sails like that.

When following these guidelines, most sails can last 100 or 150 session before the first panels need replacing. For most weekend warriors, that's more than 2 or 3 years.

That said, there are some pretty big differences between brands and types. The material and width of the mast sleeve is one big factor. On one extreme are race sails with deep luff sleeves that make it easy to rig and de-rig without wrinkles. One the other extreme, some types with thin mast sleeves and "wrinkly" mast sleeve material make it impossible to avoid wrinkles. Ezzy's are in a world of their own - you need special talents to break them, and there are tons of details that help them outlast other brands. Just don't bring them to the current sail repair shop in Hatteras if they need repairs...

2keen
WA, 334 posts
10 Aug 2023 9:24AM
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boardsurfr said..
It's all in how you handle the sail (except for bad crashes). I always thought I handled my sails well, until a semi-pro who sold his quivers every year pointed out a key element I had missed: never put your sail on the ground while rigging or de-rigging, unless it is downhauled well or the boom is on. In addition, when putting the mast on or taking it out, minimize the creases in the sail. If you put a sail down, for example to get the mast extension from your car, you're just putting pressure on the creases, and shorten the life of your sail dramatically. It always pains me when I see people handle their sails like that.

When following these guidelines, most sails can last 100 or 150 session before the first panels need replacing. For most weekend warriors, that's more than 2 or 3 years.

That said, there are some pretty big differences between brands and types. The material and width of the mast sleeve is one big factor. On one extreme are race sails with deep luff sleeves that make it easy to rig and de-rig without wrinkles. One the other extreme, some types with thin mast sleeves and "wrinkly" mast sleeve material make it impossible to avoid wrinkles. Ezzy's are in a world of their own - you need special talents to break them, and there are tons of details that help them outlast other brands. Just don't bring them to the current sail repair shop in Hatteras if they need repairs...


Ummmm
"never put your sail on the ground while rigging or de-rigging, unless it is downhauled well or the boom is on"
Isn't step one of rigging, roll out your sail on the ground?

sprayblaze
138 posts
10 Aug 2023 1:29PM
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Select to expand quote
2keen said..

boardsurfr said..
It's all in how you handle the sail (except for bad crashes). I always thought I handled my sails well, until a semi-pro who sold his quivers every year pointed out a key element I had missed: never put your sail on the ground while rigging or de-rigging, unless it is downhauled well or the boom is on. In addition, when putting the mast on or taking it out, minimize the creases in the sail. If you put a sail down, for example to get the mast extension from your car, you're just putting pressure on the creases, and shorten the life of your sail dramatically. It always pains me when I see people handle their sails like that.

When following these guidelines, most sails can last 100 or 150 session before the first panels need replacing. For most weekend warriors, that's more than 2 or 3 years.

That said, there are some pretty big differences between brands and types. The material and width of the mast sleeve is one big factor. On one extreme are race sails with deep luff sleeves that make it easy to rig and de-rig without wrinkles. One the other extreme, some types with thin mast sleeves and "wrinkly" mast sleeve material make it impossible to avoid wrinkles. Ezzy's are in a world of their own - you need special talents to break them, and there are tons of details that help them outlast other brands. Just don't bring them to the current sail repair shop in Hatteras if they need repairs...



Ummmm
"never put your sail on the ground while rigging or de-rigging, unless it is downhauled well or the boom is on"
Isn't step one of rigging, roll out your sail on the ground?


Rigging in a calm sheltered place is very important. When you are in a hurry, just arrived on the spot, wind cranking, waves peeling you are mentally unstable- just thinking about spray and getting airborne. That is when most trauma is inflicted on sails,boards (often brand new), cars etc. Apart from water time most dangerous step is derigging- after release of downhaul there is a sudden collapse of tension. Monofilm,x/ply cannot resist and incur small creases(sometimes big). This is unavoidable unless you derig in a laboratory for research purposes. .the other way to go is reduce/remove monofilm panels but then instead of sail you get a sponge... with no visibility. Monofilm is what makes a sail. And it will stay that way until artificial intellect says else...



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"Build quality different brands, I can not make my Simmers last :(" started by onshoreroy