Saw the new 795 and 935 at North Freo Foil Shop. Go and spend your dollars boys and girls.

Unfortunately, I sold my Armstrong foils a year ago. Would be great if they did a trade in deal or discount for the Loyal Armstrong supporters still out there.

I have to say gentlemen this particular thread is sounding a lot like what we eventually saw on the kiting forum.

Where's the comraderie and stoke gone? All I'm reading is crew pissing on armie, his character and the gear. You might be less inclined towards insults if you've actually met him. Great guy who just loves being in the water.


Never seen this until now. Strange behaviour..

Will share the stoke and information on other platforms. Chow Bella's and good winds.

suppose we will just leave it up young riders to see what's what.

I don't think I have said anything out of line, just stating facts.

1. No one has explained why a new 85cm strong mast is not released, if there's not a problem with the existing mast, why the new ones?
2. There are no new foils to accompany the new mast, what's up with this and where's the AR 8 foils?
3. I don't think the young guys are splashing 2K on a mast, unless maccas is paying quite well now
4. Armie is known as the best pumper in the industry, it's his business and source of income so of course he is, whether you choose to believe everything he says, well there's sucker born every minute as they say, and notice how he drops americas cup every second sentence... :) Yachts and small wing/prone mast/foils have completely different loads, but believe what you will.

I will remain on the sideline and be amused at the pump machines promoting brands without a real reason, especially if you haven't used the product.

Demo everything you can and don't believe everything you read, talk to local guys, they'll put you in the right direction. The old saying is a good rider can make anything work and it's like the old question if you're asking yourself if you need it, well you don't, you should know if you need a stiff mast or not. Anyone under 80-85kg probably doesn't need it, but a generalisation on my behalf.

I want the sport to progress but not at the expense of pumpers selling noodles and saying it is good and part of the design and then doing a 180 12 months later.

north_kiter said..
I don't think I have said anything out of line, just stating facts.

1. No one has explained why a new 85cm strong mast is not released, if there's not a problem with the existing mast, why the new ones?
2. There are no new foils to accompany the new mast, what's up with this and where's the AR 8 foils?
3. I don't think the young guys are splashing 2K on a mast, unless maccas is paying quite well now
4. Armie is known as the best pumper in the industry, it's his business and source of income so of course he is, whether you choose to believe everything he says, well there's sucker born every minute as they say, and notice how he drops americas cup every second sentence... :) Yachts and small wing/prone mast/foils have completely different loads, but believe what you will.

I will remain on the sideline and be amused at the pump machines promoting brands without a real reason, especially if you haven't used the product.

Demo everything you can and don't believe everything you read, talk to local guys, they'll put you in the right direction. The old saying is a good rider can make anything work and it's like the old question if you're asking yourself if you need it, well you don't, you should know if you need a stiff mast or not. Anyone under 80-85kg probably doesn't need it, but a generalisation on my behalf.

I want the sport to progress but not at the expense of pumpers selling noodles and saying it is good and part of the design and then doing a 180 12 months later.

Have you tried the new masts? Have you compared them to other masts? Or, are you just fussing about price and Armie having a big personality? If he can "pump" people into buying his gear is that a bad thing? It's how people stay in business and continue to innovate. It's not like he's selling crappy gear. It's not like we're not all adults who can make decisions for ourselves. Personally, when I watch his videos I see a guy who is well aligned in his life. Specifically, he's stoked about what he does for a living. I do understand how that can potentially come across as "selling" to others.

Also, what makes you think those of us who are stoked about this don't know what we're after or have the experience to judge for ourselves?

I've been riding Armstrong gear for 2 years and love the foils but always felt the masts were holding things back. That's said, I'm riding a v1 85cm mast. I learned that Armstrong was releasing this new mast a few months ago when I was exploring options to swap my 85cm to a NoLimitz for all the reasons the new mast claims to address. I'll add, I ask other riders about their experiences with different gear all the time. I find it particularly beneficial to talk to others who ride where I do (like you suggested) and/or are doing things I want to see in my own riding.

Separate from this Ive got 40+ year of experience in the water that goes across a range of sports. At different points I have been in a position where my feedback went directly back to gear designers. Over the last 25 years Ive logged an average of 70 days plus a year on the water. Some years were over 200. Since I started winging I've often logged 8-10+ days a month. This was all in Hawaii.

I know there are guys on this forum who are way better riders than me and guys who are just figuring things out. It's not my intention to hype the value of my opinion, my intention is to have you reconsider what you may believe about other people on this forum.

My point?..

Some of your assumptions about the rest of us may be not be accurate and Eppo may have some validity to his post. I don't mind opposing views, I welcome them, but if they're only based on price and the personality of the guy who owns the company, or telling other adults what you think is right for their gear choices based on price and personality, I'm not sure how those really add to the value of the discussion.

This is, of course, is just my opinion and my assumptions as I don't know anything about you either.

I understand you may not see your postings negative, I for one don't see them as constructive or in the spirit of 99% of what I've read on this forum to date. You don't have to accept this as truth, but it is what at least two others (me and Eppo) experience about your contributions to this thread.

Eppo, I've always found your posts to be full of stoke, humble, and useful. I encourage you to keep on posting.

Got mine in West OZ
Used it yesterday in heavy conditions and totally stocked.
All top notch finish and fittings.
Live the dream don't bag it.

Got my new 935 mast, upgrading from the v2 72cm. At 95kgs and also spending more time recently in the ocean and less on lakes, it was time to get something longer. The new mast feels much more solid using the same foils attached. More solid through chop, waves, etc. etc. and without any weird wobbles that i used to get. I'm sure there's part of that due to the foil being lower in the water, but it just feels solid, and the foil and mast actually feel like one unit.

(Also, I've only ever ridden Armstrong foils and i'm no expert but i'm happy with this upgrade)

I think North Kite has some good points. Part of the deal is that Armstrong has a strong dealer network, so that comes with an added margin to the end user. If the dealer is good and adds a benefit to the end user, that's when it makes sense. I'm happy to support my local shop and pay full retail.
Will Armie eventually make all the sizes of this new tech mast, almost definitely. Does launching this size first help not canabalize existing 85cm and 72cm mast inventory? Sure. Who cares. The manufacturer has to take care of dealers. Part of the business model.
Did Armie want to come out with a superior mast ever since the original? Yes, that's why they went through all the costs of making these lol. Did the original masts lack in some torsional stiffness for uncoordinated or heavyweight riders with offset stances? Yeah. Ever seen Gooch (can't recall his name) but he's a stout man and can be seen ripping the bag out with v1 masts.
I'm only 65kgs, so I probably don't need this mast, but I'm finally at the point in my riding where I'm able to tell the difference. My dealer said in his review something to the effect of not needed for most riders, and I think that's true (larger riders or extra performance seekers or 1325+ riders). So if you are considering this mast, but don't fall in those three categories, I'd recommend thinking hard on it.
I've been developing my skills as a foiler along the way with Armstrong, from the 1600 and 1200 prone to now riding the 525 and 725 winging. I've also been able to sell my used gear at a decent margin to put towards new gear. Can't say the same for other manufacturers I'd bet.
Im obviously a fan of Armstrong gear and it's totally great that there are other great options on the market helping drive innovation and competition.

MidAtlanticFoil said..
I think North Kite has some good points. Part of the deal is that Armstrong has a strong dealer network, so that comes with an added margin to the end user. If the dealer is good and adds a benefit to the end user, that's when it makes sense. I'm happy to support my local shop and pay full retail.
Will Armie eventually make all the sizes of this new tech mast, almost definitely. Does launching this size first help not canabalize existing 85cm and 72cm mast inventory? Sure. Who cares. The manufacturer has to take care of dealers. Part of the business model.
Did Armie want to come out with a superior mast ever since the original? Yes, that's why they went through all the costs of making these lol. Did the original masts lack in some torsional stiffness for uncoordinated or heavyweight riders with offset stances? Yeah. Ever seen Gooch (can't recall his name) but he's a stout man and can be seen ripping the bag out with v1 masts.
I'm only 65kgs, so I probably don't need this mast, but I'm finally at the point in my riding where I'm able to tell the difference. My dealer said in his review something to the effect of not needed for most riders, and I think that's true (larger riders or extra performance seekers or 1325+ riders). So if you are considering this mast, but don't fall in those three categories, I'd recommend thinking hard on it.
I've been developing my skills as a foiler along the way with Armstrong, from the 1600 and 1200 prone to now riding the 525 and 725 winging. I've also been able to sell my used gear at a decent margin to put towards new gear. Can't say the same for other manufacturers I'd bet.
Im obviously a fan of Armstrong gear and it's totally great that there are other great options on the market helping drive innovation and competition.

I agree that North Kite has some good points, where he lost me was peppering in comments about "drinking koolaide, finding real friends" and the like. For me and I'm sure others, that kind of posting just derails the productive side of the discussion and really amounts to just trolling. North Kite might not see it that way and that's fine. I said my piece.

Moving on...

I'm always up for critical analysis of these products especially at the price point we're talking about here. At the time I bought my V1 kit, Armstrong was leading the way. Since then, their V1 mast has since fallen behind while even while their foils continued to evolve. Like you, I'm using the 725 and 525, now my only foils. I was out this morning on the 85cm V1 and had several points where, whatever was going on in the water current this morning, it was a less than stable ride. Based on what you've written here and told me in person (good to see you on Oahu), I'm optimistic about the 935 resolving some of this for me.

One good question North Kite raised was about guys like me who were hoping there would be an 85cm version of the mast. I was initially bummed that they were only putting out a 935 and a 795, but again, after talking to you and two other local riders (who are very solid riders) that are riding 90cm+ masts, I'm starting to think the extra length might be a good thing. Two of the better riders at my local spot are riding 95cm masts and swear they would never go back when it comes to the conditions we're riding in. Two weeks ago when surf was double overhead at the peaks, I was also thinking an extra few inches wouldn't be a bad thing.

My 935 should arrive at any point, maybe even today. We've got a week of serious wind and waves shaping up so I hope to have a more informed perspective to share later this week.

Windoc said..
I felt same way about the 85cm not being a "Performance" size option so bit the bullet and ordered a 935 too. For winging, the 935 should be epic; I often would love a little more bank angle in turns so this'll help. For SUP I'm on the V1 72cm mast often as our local is frequently shallow over the bar but I dislike the low lean angles available on it. Surprisingly, I don't find the 72 a complete noodle even at 90kgs, though I'm super curious to compare the 795 with it. The A+ 85 still feels like a nice upgrade from the V1 that for SUP at least, I'll keep it for the higher tide days (unless the 935 can work too!). All this upgrading, as worthwhile as it's been for my progression and sense of fun, is searing massive holes in my savings ... but I'm young enough to have room to improve on the learning curve a lot but old enough to know that life is too short to be too precious about $ or to get caught up in forum negativity. I'm here for the froth and communal stoke.

Good thoughts all around.

Probably the wife found out how much they spent on the mast??

Has anybody trialed adding more layers of uni directional carbon to existing 85cm masts to strengthen the mast and weaken the 'noodle effect' found with larger foils? May not be the same stiffness as the new masts, but considerably cheaper? I have done so with earlier Moses masts which worked a treat

935 looking good under Noah Flegals strapless feet:

www.instagram.com/reel/ClPAcYAutqK/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

'big masts don't turn' says some

I find this thread interesting but also amusing. I'm 85KG and have owned a V1 85cm mast for over 3 years for kite and wing foiling covering more than 18,000Km. That is 3 Atlantic crossings! I've switched out the fuse to A+ and bought and sold numerous front wings but the mast is the same. I wing almost exclusively in surf up to double overhead and don't experience any major control issues.

To be fair I don't ride any foil wider than the 925 and can see how the wide HA foils might cause issues but this idea that Armie standard mast is a "noodle" is a stupid statement. For most average weight riders this gear is a fantastically smooth ride, low maintenance, durable,light and ahead of its time and still streets ahead of most of the market.

I've tested most of the top foils and find Axis and Go foil a woody hard ride the only other foil I like allot is UNI which is one of the less stiff mast setups as it happens.

I think too many inexperience riders use inappropriate foils for the conditions on the day. When I get to the beach I check the wind speed, sea state and swell size before selecting either 925,725,1250 or 1050 but this takes time to learn when each works best. Try to ride a 1125 in 25 to 30 knots and choppy sea and you are not going to have a good time.

Now having said all this I'm very interested to try the new Armie high modulus mast to see if it's a solution to a problem I don't have. At over 2K AUD it needs to be better than just better.

However if Armies marketing said guaranteed to catch 50% less weed then I'm in.
I'm over in WA at the moment and can't believe how bad the conditions are here, bloody weed everywhere it's doing my head in.

Hey KB7,

We are about the same weight and I've been chasing the dragon buying Armstrong foils. I sent you a message asking a few gear related questions. Thought I would mention that here in case you didn't see the message. If you have time to reply I would appreciate it - thanks!

Oahuwaterwalker said..

KB7 said..
I find this thread interesting but also amusing. I'm 85KG and have owned a V1 85cm mast for over 3 years for kite and wing foiling covering more than 18,000Km. That is 3 Atlantic crossings! I've switched out the fuse to A+ and bought and sold numerous front wings but the mast is the same. I wing almost exclusively in surf up to double overhead and don't experience any major control issues.

To be fair I don't ride any foil wider than the 925 and can see how the wide HA foils might cause issues but this idea that Armie standard mast is a "noodle" is a stupid statement. For most average weight riders this gear is a fantastically smooth ride, low maintenance, durable,light and ahead of its time and still streets ahead of most of the market.

I've tested most of the top foils and find Axis and Go foil a woody hard ride the only other foil I like allot is UNI which is one of the less stiff mast setups as it happens.

I think too many inexperience riders use inappropriate foils for the conditions on the day. When I get to the beach I check the wind speed, sea state and swell size before selecting either 925,725,1250 or 1050 but this takes time to learn when each works best. Try to ride a 1125 in 25 to 30 knots and choppy sea and you are not going to have a good time.

Now having said all this I'm very interested to try the new Armie high modulus mast to see if it's a solution to a problem I don't have. At over 2K AUD it needs to be better than just better.

However if Armies marketing said guaranteed to catch 50% less weed then I'm in.
I'm over in WA at the moment and can't believe how bad the conditions are here, bloody weed everywhere it's doing my head in.

I'm still waiting for the 935 to arrive here. But, for perspective, I thought I would add a little more clarity to what I'm after. The way I relate to my gear whether its in this sport or other Watersports (or guitars for that matter, lol) is that I'm always curious about what can be done to fully maximize the experience. As with all gear, some people pursue these kinds of rabbit holes, some don't. I have no doubt that a talented rider could do amazing things on gear from 3 years ago. That said, I don't think the V1 85cm is a bad mast, but I do think a stiffer more streamlined mast could have some benefit for me.

If I tried to unscientifically quantify what I expect from this mast change, I would say the 85cm mast is 85-90% of the way there. The gains I'm hoping for with the newer designs are in that 3-8% range. I'm not under the false assumption that I'm suddenly going to be riding like a pro.

What does that mean in practical terms?

-I'm hoping to add an overall 3-6kmph to my top end in speed for chasing down faster moving swell or getting to down the line sections. I know this isn't much, but based on current top speeds, it could make a big difference in certain moments. Essentially it would get me in the same speed territory as down the line windsurfing speeds (approximately 40kmph). I'm curious if those of you who have them are seeing any increase in top speed?

-With mast cavitation: I find it typically happens around 1-3 times per session. It's definitely not a deal breaker, but if it could be eliminated, I'd like that.

-I've read from a few people that the stiffer mast makes the riding feel more direct. The ride is great now, but "more direct" would be something I would appreciate. I'm also curious if and how the newer mast with change to attack impact pitch stability with smaller foils?

-I'm curious if the stiffer mast and new geometry will improve stability going through white water

Like you, I've owned a bunch of Armstrong foils 1850, 1550 V1, 1550 V2, 1250, 1050, 850, 925, 725, 525 plus the tails, 232, V, chopped V, and now the 195. I ended up selling everything except the 725 and 525. At 75kg, I can ride the 725 in as little as 10-12 kts with the right wing. If I proned or did SUP I would have kept the 925.

I 100% agree with you about riding big foils in too much wind or too much surf. Basically, that's not fun to me. One of the things I love about the 725 and 525 is that it's pretty hard to overpower them and foil out in anything under double overhead surf.

I am heavier than you, 88kg. At my weight the 85cm had issues in very rough seas, specially side chop and over 30knots. In the surf was fine. And at high speed, not a deal breaker but hard to control.
the new mast added more speed, but I think due to been more stable. I am not trying to go fast, I enjoy surfing and jumping. With the 925 my best with the 85 was 35kmh with the 93 38kmh and my average was up as well. I think the length helps as well. I prefer 93cm now.
for jumping is day and night, much better pop and landing is incredible. In most jumps you can land at speed like windsurfing (not quite but close) before it would be a complete stop in all but 1 one 2 jumps. The new angle really helps here.
no question the new mast is more stable, easier to ride and more forgiving. I don't think it's worth the upgrade if you mainly wing in flat water and under 25knots. Specially if you are under 85kg