I'm new to the forum but have spent some time snooping around here-an invaluable forum for the community. Any input would be most appreciated.

In brief: I've been wing foiling for about six months-now riding consistently and crashing far less. I recently experienced two canopy tears on my Armstrong V2 2.5m in a week-crashing and having my board flipped in gusty (25-30kts) Maui waters, on both occasions. The Armstrong HS232 (un-cut) tail pierces through Teijin canopy with no resistance. I use a 7ft ankle-cuff surf leash but there is no guarantee that the board would end up at a comfortable distance when crashing-some have noted this on other posts related to this topic. What can one do to potentially prevent this from happening, if anything?
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In detail: I've been wing foiling for about six months but have recently transitioned to a new foil setup and wing quiver. I started with a Naish S26 95L board, Naish S26 JET1650 foil setup (with 75cm AL mast), and a quiver of Ozone V2 wings. I still use the same board but have since transitioned to an Armstrong 1550V2/HS232 or V200 (with 85cm mast) foil setup and a quiver of Armstrong V2 wings. On both occasions, my board flipped in gusty (25-35kts) Maui waters onto my V2 2.5m wing. For it to happen once may be regarded as a misfortune; to happen twice looks like carelessness. I've been making sure to surface from a crash and stop my board from flipping over and/or ensure a safe distance from my wing. This usually works but chaos tends to ensue significantly quicker in windy conditions. I've heard hearsay that Aluula wings are much more durable and less likely for this sort of thing to happen. I've not used one myself but have used the Reedin SuperwingX. The x-ply used is more durable than Teijin with respect to withstanding piercing damage (obviously) but that wing is probably better suited for racing rather than riding around and dabbling in a bit of luffed-out surf-that's just my beginner opinion. I'd happily pay more for wings that could withstand the occasional poke. I have access to a very good professional repair service but would like to avoid having wings with more stitching than actual canopy material.
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Observations: My Armstrong gear is fantastic but I've made a few observations with respect to the way that the (my) foil and wings behave in windy conditions (note: this is almost a non-issue for me in lighter conditions but I acknowledge that this sort of thing can still happen).

Foil: My Armstrong setup, in comparison to my previous Naish setup, is significantly lighter. When attached to a relatively large board (95L, 5'7"x27.5") and used in windy conditions, I've noticed that the board is significantly more likely to be flipped over, whether in surf or not. The 'surface area' of the board for wind to act upon is probably large enough to easily expose the foil. I presume that a smaller board is less likely to be flipped over (I weigh 82kg so am thinking of sizing down to something in 70-80L range). Similarly, I presume that the length of the mast and the size and weight of the front wing affects the lever force of the load that comes hurtling down. Thoughts?

Wing: My Armstrong V2 wings really stick to the water when flipped over. I presume that there is some relationship between the lack of dihedral in the LE (note: my uneducated guess is that 'flatter' wings probably have quicker power delivery as there is more tension for the canopy to act against). The Ozone V2 wings have a good amount of dihedral so tend to just fly up even when flipped over-that is, there is enough of an 'opening' for air to pass through the wing and water surface to allow for it to unstick. I've been able to maneuver the wing away from a flipping board on a few occasions. I think it's fair to compare the two wings to this end since they both use Dacron and Teijin (the addition of x-ply and aramid in the Armstrong V2 wings adds a negligible amount of weight and is minimal in coverage overall). The material characteristics when in the water should be the same. Thoughts?

Thanks for the reply, King Crash. I always use an ankle leash--the foil just makes it that much easier for the wind to send a few thousand dollars hopelessly downwind. I'm going to try a shorter leash.

what about leash connected to the front of the board?

felix1111 said..
what about leash connected to the front of the board?

I tried this on my starboard which has a front leash connection - more out of curiosity because it was there than anything. Was not a fan- it seemed the board was much more likely to come charging towards me without the brake that comes from the leash at the back.

fwiw, i have not had any board flip issues with a 4'7"/65L and armstrong ha/232 setup in similar conditions to what you're describing

Narrow board (22" wide) will help, less windage to flip the board. A heavier foil makes it sink quicker, but obviously not desired. I've had boards flip when riding larger wings but since moving to the 1040HA and narrow board I've never had a flip, even when on my 2.5mtr wing.

Thanks ever so much for the responses. I'm the original poster; I had to make a new account since the website kept indicating that my password was incorrect. I'm a new user so maybe it thought I was a bot. I made a new account so that I can respond to this thread.

dapara2004 said..
I've had a board flip and put a hole in a wing. Same foils. I ended up using a longer wing leash and letting go so it is well downwind of my foil. I use a reel board leash and that also helps.

Thanks for the input. I just modified my Armstrong waist leash by attaching the wrist leash bungee bit so that I can 'extend' the wing leash by pulling the quick release. I gave it a few tests today--worked brilliantly. Wipeouts don't always go to plan, however. I'd like to post a picture of it but I'm still new so don't think I can.

Gorgo said..
I tried all sorts of long/short/waist/ankle leash configurations and none of them make much difference in the long term. During a crash the board and wing rarely end up neatly streamed out at the end of the leash. Many times after a crash I can be in the water wondering where my board is and find it's upwind behind me or under the wing or surfing down a wave to bonk the back of my helmet.

A smaller board makes it less likely for it to settle with the board down and the foil up, but it can still happen. Even if it doesn't settle, it just has to be upside down for a second then roll over at the wrong time and the wing is skewered. Equally bad is the wing flopping over and impaling itself on the foil. The first (and only time) it happened to me was with a big fat roundy low aspect foil. Sharpness of the foil makes not much difference. My pointy high aspect foil landed in the canopy last session and just sat there with no damage.

Simply put, anything that can happen will happen. All you can do is get better at foiling so you crash less often. Even that is problematic. Riding fast and aggressively can make for some interesting stacks especially if waves are involved. Statistically theres a heap less crashes but you're out on the water more so the total number can be the same or greater.

It's fairly important to not be too emotionally invested in your gear, especially wings. Learn to repair them (taping canopy fabric is easy) and learn to love the battle scarred pirate look. Black tape repairs look the best.

One thing I have done a few times is to climb up on top of the wing so it doesn't flip itself, and that frees arms and legs to fend off the wing. That relies on you being aware of imminent impalement and taking appropriate action quickly enough.

Thanks for the excellent input! I did some testing over the last few days and ended up crashing whilst holding the wing, even with just one hand. This allowed me to surface knowing where the wind was so that I could figure out what my board was going to do. This obviously doesn't apply to every scenario but I felt like it gave me a little extra time to think.

I think you're absolutely spot on about not being too emotionally invested in the gear. I think one's progression--or the rate of it, anyway--will be seriously curtailed if unwilling to experience the wipeouts (and learn how to deal with their consequences). Safety first but this sport is not exactly without risk. I'm going to try the climb-on-wing rescue. I think it'll put me in a good position to stop the foil (my Kiwi Armie knife) should it come hurtling down.

JohnnyTsunami said..
Send the board downwind and fall upwind with the wing. If you have to kick it upwind, don't kick it hard and try to fly downwind a bit with the wing.

I've been trying that. I have to learn to know what the just-right amount of kick is so that I don't end up encouraging the board to flip over. A lot easier to do when crashing mid-tack than mid-gybe.

paulweller2 said..

airsail said..
Narrow board (22" wide) will help, less windage to flip the board. A heavier foil makes it sink quicker, but obviously not desired. I've had boards flip when riding larger wings but since moving to the 1040HA and narrow board I've never had a flip, even when on my 2.5mtr wing.

Thanks for the input. I might have to get a sinker board for windy days--the windy days here on Maui are consistent, albeit gusty, so it's unlikely that the wind will just die down and end up stuck out at sea.

This is a funny one. Something I've observed first hand, but some sinkers, If designed well. Paddle better, faster and are easier to than if you had to paddle a floating board.
My 4"0 PPC is a dream to paddle if I get stuck. It's easy, fast and really not that energy intensive. Whereas my 60L Starboard is a dredge to paddle - hard, slow and did I mention slow? Takes 40 minutes to swim what takes 15 on the PPC.
I would consider this as a worst case scenario, but always consider 'can I swim home from here'.

If you can get past the look of the Reel waist leash, that's they way to go. It will extend up to like 15' or something in a wave or high speed wipeout and then slowly real it back. I will grab the leash line after a bad wipeout to keep the board from retracting and away from the wing if needed. It's kinda unnerving at first out in the ocean when you eat it and you don't feel a hard yank from the board and you look around only to find it slowly meandering back to you.

Regarding the above advise about never letting go of the wing on a wipeout, I totally agree.except for two scenarios that I'm aware of. One is where you have a a wing tip drag and flip the wing. If you continue to hold the front strut handle and fall in, you can easily arm bar yourself and get a hyperextended elbow (just saw a YouTube video warning about this). The second scenario is when luffing the wing from the front handle at speed and breaching and going head first/ dive style by mistake. If you don't ditch the wing, you will jam your wrist easy.


I will often ditch the handle and gather the leash about a foot from the front handle very quickly whenever it doesn't make sense to maintain full connection to a handle. Never let it dance at the end of the leash.

airsail said..

paulweller2 said..

airsail said..
Narrow board (22" wide) will help, less windage to flip the board. A heavier foil makes it sink quicker, but obviously not desired. I've had boards flip when riding larger wings but since moving to the 1040HA and narrow board I've never had a flip, even when on my 2.5mtr wing.

Thanks for the input. I might have to get a sinker board for windy days--the windy days here on Maui are consistent, albeit gusty, so it's unlikely that the wind will just die down and end up stuck out at sea.

My 22" wide board is not a sinker, 74lts. You can get away with narrow at the foil provides the lateral stability when getting up. I'm 80kgs and use this board in all conditions.

What brand is your brand? I'm interested in downsizing to the Armstrong FG 75L or PPC Soar 68L--both boards are a few inches wider than 22". I'm 82kg.

Beasho said..

paulweller2 said..

Thanks for the excellent input! I did some testing over the last few days and ended up crashing whilst holding the wing, even with just one hand. This allowed me to surface knowing where the wind was so that I could figure out what my board was going to do. This obviously doesn't apply to every scenario but I felt like it gave me a little extra time to think.

Never let go of the wing during a wipe out. The worst combination is a board flipped and the wing fluttering at the end of its tether. Even on the beach the wing and foil will connect and pop (I have experienced both).

Now I NEVER let go of the wing on a crash. Sounds hard but just DON'T let go. This minimizes the chance of a contact. This also prevents the wrist leash from slipping off or breaking in a gust. It has happened to so many people and the only solution is to hang on to the wing.

I cringe whenever I look out and see someone's wing flapping at the end of their leash. Usually these are beginners.

I appreciate the feedback. I think MidAtlanticFoil might be right about there being a few exceptions to this--as with almost everything--but this is something that I think beginners should know. I still consider myself very much a beginner but do cringe when I see wings flapping about upon entry/exit.

Goofcat said..
Putting a foil through the wing is a rite of passage. Be proud of your accomplishment! Repairs are cheap. There are a couple of very skilled ladies on Maui who'll sew that thing back up brand new looking for less than $30. Don't be ghetto and cover the wing with tape.

I chuck my wing when I crash. Already have enough wrist and elbow issues from crashing on land, no need to jack myself up in the waves.

I suppose you're right. I had a recent visit to Karen--exceptional care. The first tear was cross-shaped so the repair ripstop overlay is very much in the shape of a cross--christened my wing! An added bonus is that she stocks Armstrong-colored ripstop. Not sure about whether she stocks for other brands.

GWatto said..
Hey Paul, welcome to the forum, on a side note I've been a fan of your music for years

I mean, this thing called wing foiling, you 'avin that? I got right into it. Music and now this. I'm the changingman!

paulweller2 said..

airsail said..

paulweller2 said..

airsail said..
Narrow board (22" wide) will help, less windage to flip the board. A heavier foil makes it sink quicker, but obviously not desired. I've had boards flip when riding larger wings but since moving to the 1040HA and narrow board I've never had a flip, even when on my 2.5mtr wing.

Thanks for the input. I might have to get a sinker board for windy days--the windy days here on Maui are consistent, albeit gusty, so it's unlikely that the wind will just die down and end up stuck out at sea.

My 22" wide board is not a sinker, 74lts. You can get away with narrow at the foil provides the lateral stability when getting up. I'm 80kgs and use this board in all conditions.

What brand is your brand? I'm interested in downsizing to the Armstrong FG 75L or PPC Soar 68L--both boards are a few inches wider than 22". I'm 82kg.

Carbonco, they are our local board builder in North Brisbane. Mitch the owner builds what we like and is an experienced winger himself. Narrow boards are a favourite, but with enough volume to get you back in the lightest wind and light weight to keep the swing weight down. Bit like riding a sinker without the associated problems.