I've been posting in the Armstrong HA525 thread, but I think the audience for that specific wing is pretty small so I thought I would broaden the topic area to include other brands. Based on my experience with the HA925, HA725, and HA525 you start to enter a very different experience of riding once you cross the 700cm2 threshold. Someone posted or said in a video that the jump from the 925 to the 725 was more challenging than the 725 to the 525, I agree completely.

For context, I'm 75kg, riding 65l board, HA195 tail, 60 fuse. Wings include Reedin 3.6 Superwing X plus a 4.7 and a 5.2 Superwing V2/3.

When I first saw the size of the HA525, I abandoned the idea that it would work for winging. My guess is that it would take 20+ kts and be beyond difficult at that. Two conversations with other local riders (Oahu, Hawaii) and the HA525 thread led me to reconsider and I ended up picking one up a couple weeks ago. After about 7 or 8 sessions, I ended up selling my HA925. I know I'm late to the party, but I realized that riding one size up on hand wing makes it possible to get the 725 out in the same wind as the 925 (10-12kts) and the 525 starts working in a steady 12+ kts. I know two guys on Oahu who are in the 85-90kg range who are riding 500'ish foils and doing it with bigger wings in as little as 13-15kts.

Now that the novelty of riding the 525 is starting to cool down. Here's my thoughts...

- Though its possible to ride the 525 in as little as 10-12kts (if you use a chop with a gust to get on foil and don't fall) jibing is brutally unforgiving with a big wing and light wind. The 725 (still small) is way more forgiving on light wind jibes.
-In light wind and small swell or waves, don't bother with these tiny foils, it's way too much work (IMHO).

Where it shines:
-When the wind is steady 14kts or higher, its a lot of fun when riding one size up in wing from what you would ride on a bigger foil (by this I mean something 300-500cm2 larger).
-I rode today on the very light end because the surf was better. On a steep head high + swell or breaking wave its unbelievably fun. It feels like a really small surfboard and just flies and has plenty of glide. If the wind is on the lighter side, but surf is head high or bigger, I'll do my best to make the 525 work.
-I can't wait to try this thing out in bigger wind and waves. The biggest swell I've caught yet was a little overhead. It was a steep ocean swell that didn't break but stood up. With these tiny foils, you can sit in the section that would normally make you feel like you were about to foil out. You can also drop in at points that would send you flying on a bigger foil.
-I was also surprised that the pitch stability was comparable or better than the 725. Rail to rail is a totally different ball game though.

At the end of the day, I'm blown away that foils this size are actually accessible for winging in sub 20kt wind. I suspect that more people will start going this direction once they realize its possible.

Anybody else venturing into these smaller foils? What are you using and what's your experience?

MidAtlanticFoil said..

Oahuwaterwalker said..
I've been posting in the Armstrong HA525 thread, but I think the audience for that specific wing is pretty small so I thought I would broaden the topic area to include other brands. Based on my experience with the HA925, HA725, and HA525 you start to enter a very different experience of riding once you cross the 700cm2 threshold. Someone posted or said in a video that the jump from the 925 to the 725 was more challenging than the 725 to the 525, I agree completely.

For context, I'm 75kg, riding 65l board, HA195 tail, 60 fuse. Wings include Reedin 3.6 Superwing X plus a 4.7 and a 5.2 Superwing V2/3.

When I first saw the size of the HA525, I abandoned the idea that it would work for winging. My guess is that it would take 20+ kts and be beyond difficult at that. Two conversations with other local riders (Oahu, Hawaii) and the HA525 thread led me to reconsider and I ended up picking one up a couple weeks ago. After about 7 or 8 sessions, I ended up selling my HA925. I know I'm late to the party, but I realized that riding one size up on hand wing makes it possible to get the 725 out in the same wind as the 925 (10-12kts) and the 525 starts working in a steady 12+ kts. I know two guys on Oahu who are in the 85-90kg range who are riding 500'ish foils and doing it with bigger wings in as little as 13-15kts.

Now that the novelty of riding the 525 is starting to cool down. Here's my thoughts...

- Though its possible to ride the 525 in as little as 10-12kts (if you use a chop with a gust to get on foil and don't fall) jibing is brutally unforgiving with a big wing and light wind. The 725 (still small) is way more forgiving on light wind jibes.
-In light wind and small swell or waves, don't bother with these tiny foils, it's way too much work (IMHO).

Where it shines:
-When the wind is steady 14kts or higher, its a lot of fun when riding one size up in wing from what you would ride on a bigger foil (by this I mean something 300-500cm2 larger).
-I rode today on the very light end because the surf was better. On a steep head high + swell or breaking wave its unbelievably fun. It feels like a really small surfboard and just flies and has plenty of glide. If the wind is on the lighter side, but surf is head high or bigger, I'll do my best to make the 525 work.
-I can't wait to try this thing out in bigger wind and waves. The biggest swell I've caught yet was a little overhead. It was a steep ocean swell that didn't break but stood up. With these tiny wings, you can sit in the section that would normally make you feel like you were about to foil out. You can also drop in at points that would send you flying on a bigger foil.
-I was also surprised that the pitch stability was comparable or better than the 725. Rail to rail is a totally different ball game though.

At the end of the day, I'm blown away that foils this size are actually accessible for winging in sub 20kt wind. I suspect that more people will start going this direction once they realize its possible.

Anybody else venturing into these smaller foils? What are you using and what's your experience?

Thanks for the post. I just loaded my car for an early session. Adding a 5m to the car in hopes of ripping around on the 525. We are finally getting past the 10 knt southerly season with our first N/NE wind/swell event. It's been a long summer waiting to get back on the 525!

The 525 with my 5.2 Reedin is a blast. I find it's a lot more manageable to ride overpowered with a wing on these small foils. Reminds me of compensating for being totally overpowered on your smallest sail windsurfing by switching to a smaller fin. Suddenly, you're back in control but with a ton of horsepower. Have fun out there!

Oahuwaterwalker said..
I've been posting in the Armstrong HA525 thread, but I think the audience for that specific wing is pretty small so I thought I would broaden the topic area to include other brands. Based on my experience with the HA925, HA725, and HA525 you start to enter a very different experience of riding once you cross the 700cm2 threshold. Someone posted or said in a video that the jump from the 925 to the 725 was more challenging than the 725 to the 525, I agree completely.

For context, I'm 75kg, riding 65l board, HA195 tail, 60 fuse. Wings include Reedin 3.6 Superwing X plus a 4.7 and a 5.2 Superwing V2/3.

When I first saw the size of the HA525, I abandoned the idea that it would work for winging. My guess is that it would take 20+ kts and be beyond difficult at that. Two conversations with other local riders (Oahu, Hawaii) and the HA525 thread led me to reconsider and I ended up picking one up a couple weeks ago. After about 7 or 8 sessions, I ended up selling my HA925. I know I'm late to the party, but I realized that riding one size up on hand wing makes it possible to get the 725 out in the same wind as the 925 (10-12kts) and the 525 starts working in a steady 12+ kts. I know two guys on Oahu who are in the 85-90kg range who are riding 500'ish foils and doing it with bigger wings in as little as 13-15kts.

Now that the novelty of riding the 525 is starting to cool down. Here's my thoughts...

- Though its possible to ride the 525 in as little as 10-12kts (if you use a chop with a gust to get on foil and don't fall) jibing is brutally unforgiving with a big wing and light wind. The 725 (still small) is way more forgiving on light wind jibes.
-In light wind and small swell or waves, don't bother with these tiny foils, it's way too much work (IMHO).

Where it shines:
-When the wind is steady 14kts or higher, its a lot of fun when riding one size up in wing from what you would ride on a bigger foil (by this I mean something 300-500cm2 larger).
-I rode today on the very light end because the surf was better. On a steep head high + swell or breaking wave its unbelievably fun. It feels like a really small surfboard and just flies and has plenty of glide. If the wind is on the lighter side, but surf is head high or bigger, I'll do my best to make the 525 work.
-I can't wait to try this thing out in bigger wind and waves. The biggest swell I've caught yet was a little overhead. It was a steep ocean swell that didn't break but stood up. With these tiny foils, you can sit in the section that would normally make you feel like you were about to foil out. You can also drop in at points that would send you flying on a bigger foil.
-I was also surprised that the pitch stability was comparable or better than the 725. Rail to rail is a totally different ball game though.

At the end of the day, I'm blown away that foils this size are actually accessible for winging in sub 20kt wind. I suspect that more people will start going this direction once they realize its possible.

Anybody else venturing into these smaller foils? What are you using and what's your experience?

I have a bit the same experience than you. Same weight than you also more or less.At the start I needed 15 knots to fly with the 525. Now up of 12 knots it's enough. I use now also the ha195 instead of the flyingV. The Flying turn better but with the ha195 if you use small front wings the combo turns enough and you fly easier and sooner and have more glide. I don't use anymore the 925 but it works better with the flying V imo.

725 : 10-12 knots I would say also. I use also the 50 fuselage it helps to turn better.The difference with you is that I am living in Mediterranean sea and waves are not powerful as the ones you have and if they are not big enough there is no advantage to use the 525. The 725 has more glide and I can focus on the surf with this type of waves.I keep the 525 for the big days.

I am a bit out of topic but I precise that I keep also the 1550v2 for really light wind. To my opinion it exists other brands with similar wing that has a bit more lift for the light wind. But the 1550v2 has the advantage that if the wind goes up and I am lazy to switch to the 725 I can have fun with the first one even with small waves.

I had a fun session testing out the 525 / 50f / 195 tail in flat water this morning with winds in the 15-20mph range with a 4M Nitro wing. No problem getting on foil. The amount of acceleration you get out of the wing is second to none. Looking back at the waterspeed data, it appears to get on foil (and stall) right around 9-10mph for me at this point. It will accelerate from 10 to 20 very quick, especially sheeting in for a gybe. My max speed was 20.2 mph (17.4knts), which was just before a race gybe, super fun.

I was worried the 50 fuse would be too much to handle, but it was fine in the flatter water (shin high ripples). Tomorrow I take it out of the kiddie pool to the Chesapeake Bay for some bumps n jumps.

For some reason I don't understand, most brands like to reduce the AR when you get to the sub 800cm foils (cab, axis). I ride a 10AR ~600 and 800cm foils. 800 is for if it's going to be really light and variable or I'm trying to ride swell or wake without use of the wing for a long time. I am continuously surprised at how slowly I can ride it in tacks and jibes without stalling.

The smaller foil is for racing and blasting and powered up wave riding. In my riding I like to try to push the g-forces in the turns as much as possible since the feeling is addictive and it's impossible on a normal surfboard without ventilating the fins. Coming out of a monster turn with tons of speed and into another monster turn you either need to be on an amazing wave or have a 10AR <800cm foil with awesome glide. I try and avoid any actual pumping in flat water between swells on the small foil but it's do-able downwind. Relaxed riding it offshore is nice since the upper speed limit will never be touched by regular wind swell of any size so you can feel confident staring down a steep one.

It's not really possible to ride as hard on bigger foils since you lose the speed and turn-ability with the width.

The magic of the 10AR wings is really best felt at 800cm and lower (90cm wide and less) otherwise you lose too agility to the width. They are useful for things like downwind SUP but I wouldn't wing one. My buddy was off a 1099 and into an 899 and said it was night and day for him.

That said it wasn't long ago when I first rode a sub 1,000 foil and I remember thinking "crap, this thing is too small to be an every day foil." I wrong, but that was my only foil at the time so the learning process happened very fast. Others who I heard complain about the ART 899 stalling too easily were constantly switching to other bigger lower AR foils and I don't think ever really committed to it. I do think these foils are really not suited to most folks who aren't interested in riding fast, and that's why it's taken brands ages to come out with them finally.

I personally think at 77kgs a 10AR ~600cm is the perfect size foil that you can still pump and also rip at high speeds and glide. I have one smaller and it's a bit more challenging. I'm interested in smaller 12+ ARs, but none exist...

JohnnyTsunami said..
For some reason I don't understand, most brands like to reduce the AR when you get to the sub 800cm foils (cab, axis). I ride a 10AR ~600 and 800cm foils. 800 is for if it's going to be really light and variable or I'm trying to ride swell or wake without use of the wing for a long time. I am continuously surprised at how slowly I can ride it in tacks and jibes without stalling.

The smaller foil is for racing and blasting and powered up wave riding. In my riding I like to try to push the g-forces in the turns as much as possible since the feeling is addictive and it's impossible on a normal surfboard without ventilating the fins. Coming out of a monster turn with tons of speed and into another monster turn you either need to be on an amazing wave or have a 10AR
It's not really possible to ride as hard on bigger foils since you lose the speed and turn-ability with the width.

The magic of the 10AR wings is really best felt at 800cm and lower (90cm wide and less) otherwise you lose too agility to the width. They are useful for things like downwind SUP but I wouldn't wing one. My buddy was off a 1099 and into an 899 and said it was night and day for him.

That said it wasn't long ago when I first rode a sub 1,000 foil and I remember thinking "crap, this thing is too small to be an every day foil." I wrong, but that was my only foil at the time so the learning process happened very fast. Others who I heard complain about the ART 899 stalling too easily were constantly switching to other bigger lower AR foils and I don't think ever really committed to it. I do think these foils are really not suited to most folks who aren't interested in riding fast, and that's why it's taken brands ages to come out with them finally.

I personally think at 77kgs a 10AR ~600cm is the perfect size foil that you can still pump and also rip at high speeds and glide. I have one smaller and it's a bit more challenging. I'm interested in smaller 12+ ARs, but none exist...

At 76kg, the Axis ARTs 799 and 899 with 350p stab work for me in 10kn ish wind and up with incredible glide.

King Crash said..

How did you manage to balance the 799? I always had it lifting to the point that 22knots plus felt uncomfortable as I knew I would blow up at any point. Whereas on the 1099 Eagle, I hit 25 knots very comfortably and have a more playful foil than the 799.
I agree that the smaller you go, often the better it is. But these newer HA foils are just as good as a small gen 2 HA

I use a -1 degree shim with the ARTs to balance out the increased lift at speed. To me the 799 behaves better in every way for my weight (80kg) with the -1 on. Without the shim I feel there is too much lift once you are getting close to 20 knots and you have to shift your weight too far forward. With the -1 it becomes neutral across the range.

axisfoils.com/products/axis-foils-3d-printing-files-1-degree-rear-wing

This guy tested the shims for pumping, which gives good insight into what affect they have on different setups:

So far I have only achieved 19.2kn speed on the 799 with the 350 p stab and ultra short fuselage plus 86cm carbon mast.
I frequently foil 18kn speed plus and don't experience lift with the 799 however, I do to a small amount with the 899.