6 months or 10,000km - whichever comes first?!

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busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
12 Apr 2011 8:24pm
(funny story)
I had a holden vectra. $2000(****box)good V8 to expencive to run now
i was driving it home oneday and all the coolant leaked out. it started to overheat i kept on driving it as i pulled in the gate on ma property it was so hot that stuff was melting and smoking under the bonnet.
I decided to turn on the bore and proceeded to take of what i though was a coolant line going into the motor and run cool water thru it to stop the motor catching alight.. As i was filling it i noticed that there was no water coming out of the radiator.
I then realized that i had just fill the entire sump and motor up with water.

Anyways your car will only require an oil top up when you hear a ticking noise under the bonnet.
You can clean your air filter by removing it and hitting it on the bonnet (hammer like action)
service done.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23695 posts
WA, 23695 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:09pm
Reminds me of when I worked in a servo and a lady came in with a brand new Merc, like $200K territory. She opened the bonnet and did something and 5mins later it would not start.

Turns out she heard once that a car may need a bit of water on a hot day. She's poured the 10L watering can full into the oil filler. Cracked the head for a start, and no wonder it would not turn over!
BarryDawson
BarryDawson
WA
175 posts
WA, 175 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:11pm
doggie said...
Oil is designed to break down to do its job, some break down faster than others.



Hi Doggie, many different chemicals (depending on the supplier who is the one adding to his specification) are added to the base oil product at the refinery. From memory I think there are only three main oil suppliers in Australia, from there the different proportions of chemicals are added to achieve a required viscosity, API rating and the ability of the oil to be used in petrol and/or diesel applications. Detergents are one of the products that can be used in engine oil manufacture and is there to clean the internal parts of the engine, soot and carbon deposits are then hopefully held in suspension and therefore not becoming an abrasive for internal moving parts. Oil will break down (sunlight will do it) but it is not designed to break down to do its job, if it's doing its job it should basically hold contaminants in suspension until its changed.

@ GPA It's even more important in 2011 than 1959 to regularly change your engine oil and filter with the correctly rated oil and viscosity due to the (over engineered) technology that is running the modern engine such as engine oil driving fuel injection systems. Low ash oils are also important to use in modern diesel engines so as not to block the ash filter in the exhaust system. Holden Astra is the prime example, note the extremely low soot emmisions coming from the exhaust of a diesel Astra, Peugeot, Citreon etc etc etc.

If you own a late model V6 Commodore with the cartridge style oil filter be sure to do all you scheduled services, it's cheap compared to replacing and engine because the oil filter catridge is blocked from sludging. I have lost count of the number of these I have seen.

Oils aint oils Sol
Ian K
Ian K
WA
4170 posts
WA, 4170 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:12pm
Maybe you should change the oil inside the engine every now and then but never disturb that layer of oil that builds up on the outside of the engine. It has preservative qualities. My commodore has finally stopped at 360K and I blame the mechanic who insisted I steam clean the engine before he'd roadworthy it. Other things that I have proven don't need to be changed are gear box oil, diff oil and spark plugs. (Only changed the spark plugs once because I thought I'd better, the old ones still looked OK)
theDoctor
theDoctor
NSW
5786 posts
NSW, 5786 posts
12 Apr 2011 11:13pm

I'm thinking that might be an urban legend of the ice bath kidney degree...

I heard it happened at the servo down the road from me..
same merc, same hot day, same stupid lady
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:13pm
Mark _australia said...

Reminds me of when I worked in a servo and a lady came in with a brand new Merc, like $200K territory. She opened the bonnet and did something and 5mins later it would not start.

Turns out she heard once that a car may need a bit of water on a hot day. She's poured the 10L watering can full into the oil filler. Cracked the head for a start, and no wonder it would not turn over!


Did she get a free food voucher from sims metal !!!!

Im glad cars are built out of plastic now else where i park when i windsurf
10 000km service would be a replacement anything non ferritic.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23695 posts
WA, 23695 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:17pm
I like the ripoff of "tuning" an EFI engine

If the computer is not showing a fault code for a sensor it is fine, change oil and filters, now and then clean fuel system / change spark plugs, and it will run.
People still think they get a "tune up" like the old distributor and points day, when in fact they get oil change and the BS "100 point safety check" that they should do themselves

My cars only get fluids done and never a problem
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:20pm
Ian K said...

Maybe you should change the oil inside the engine every now and then but never disturb that layer of oil that builds up on the outside of the engine. It has preservative qualities. My commodore has finally stopped at 360K and I blame the mechanic who insisted I steam clean the engine before he'd roadworthy it. Other things that I have proven don't need to be changed are gear box oil, diff oil and spark plugs. (Only changed the spark plugs once because I thought I'd better, the old ones still looked OK)


Did you get it going again or was it terminal?

I took the motor out of my VS wagon at 320Kkm, but it was running perfectly with great economy. I only pulled it out so that the supercharged engine could go in.

Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23695 posts
WA, 23695 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:26pm
theDoctor said...


I'm thinking that might be an urban legend of the ice bath kidney degree...

I heard it happened at the servo down the road from me..
same merc, same hot day, same stupid lady


Well my true story travelled far
It was a red 500 (SEL?) the 2 door softtop, Shell servo in Nedlands in 1991.

Or maybe there are lots of non mechanically minded rich ladies

BarryDawson
BarryDawson
WA
175 posts
WA, 175 posts
12 Apr 2011 9:31pm
Mark _australia said...

If the computer is not showing a fault code for a sensor it is fine,


Hi Mark, this is not entirely true. An example is an Oxygen Sensor, also known as a Lambda Sensor or O2 sensor. It generally resides in the front pipe or exhaust manifold and there can be up to four on a late model V8 engine. I have found many of these sensors faulty when there has been no check engine light illuminated on the dash of the vehicle. O2 sensors should be replaced every 100,000kms to ensure correct and efficient operation of the fuel injection system.

Be mindful an engine ECU (Electronic Control Unit) is dumb. It will only illuminate the check engine light if a predetermined set of circumstances occur to illuminate it. If a problem exists in the vehicle that has not been forseen in the programming of the ECU then no check engine light will be illuminated.
CJW
CJW
NSW
1731 posts
CJW CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
12 Apr 2011 11:33pm
I'll also confirm that most dealer service centres are straight up hopeless. Case in point, when I was 18 I bought a VL commodore and after a year of sweet general thrashing the clutch went. Now it was so bad that if you were driving up a gear in top gear and put your foot down the revs would rise and you wouldn't accelerate, the clutch was that worn. Anyway the time was against me so I decided to book it in at my local Holden dealer to get the clutch replaced, sweet I thought and drop it off

That afternoon I get a call "cars ready mate", so I go down to pick it up. When I get there the bloke behind the counter goes "yeah mate we couldn't find anything wrong with it, shes good to go". I must have had this look my my face that said "are you taking the piss" because he goes "yeah its fine, here are the keys".

Anyway I couldn't believe it, I got the service manager and took him out to the car. I started it, put it in 5th gear, revved it to 1500 and let the clutch entirely out...the car didn't stall. My simple question to him was "is that normal?" The look on his face said it all, "so you'll want to keep it overnight then?" I said..."yeah mate we'll get that fixed up for you".

I couldn't bloody believe it, I had booked the car in, told them exactly what was wrong with it and even then they failed. Maybe it was because I was 19 that they though I was some sort of idiot...anyway I never went back there and have serviced every car I have owned since myself (obviously haven't bought a new one).

Back to the original post, the 6 months is crap, if it only sees light duty and is a non turbo every 10000km is fine, do both oil and filter.
Ian K
Ian K
WA
4170 posts
WA, 4170 posts
12 Apr 2011 10:04pm
FormulaNova said...


Did you get it going again or was it terminal?

I took the motor out of my VS wagon at 320Kkm, but it was running perfectly with great economy. I only pulled it out so that the supercharged engine could go in.




You haven't left the shire have you? Or is WA your 2nd home?

I should let it be terminal but I'm stubbornly refusing to give in. The computer error codes aren't much help. I've got a $49 ebay crank angle sensor on the way for no reason other than everyone saying "have you tried the crank angle sensor?"



GPA
GPA
WA
2529 posts
GPA GPA
WA, 2529 posts
12 Apr 2011 10:17pm
Thanks to everybody who has replied - great feedback and once again I've learnt something...or many things!!

For the record, I'm not looking to save money or avoid servicing when it's due - the question was basically what governs service periods - mileage (use) or time...

I'm going with mileage with the caviat that it will be done annually or every 10,000km as a minimum - whichever comes first.

Cheers to all...
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
13 Apr 2011 12:37am
GPA said...
- the question was basically what governs service periods - mileage (use) or time...


Both.

A mileage or time (whichever come first) is the way to work it.

The amount of mileage or length of time is determined by the quality of the lubricant and filter.

I have been using these lubricants ( http://www.bimlube.com.au/ ) for the last 15 years and my various bits of machinery just do not wear out.

Click around the site and read their story to find out how good their products are and where you can buy them.

FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
13 Apr 2011 5:57am
Ian K said...

FormulaNova said...


Did you get it going again or was it terminal?

I took the motor out of my VS wagon at 320Kkm, but it was running perfectly with great economy. I only pulled it out so that the supercharged engine could go in.




You haven't left the shire have you? Or is WA your 2nd home?

I should let it be terminal but I'm stubbornly refusing to give in. The computer error codes aren't much help. I've got a $49 ebay crank angle sensor on the way for no reason other than everyone saying "have you tried the crank angle sensor?"





If it just stopped and won't restart but everything else checks out, the crank angle sensor is a good bet. On the Ecotecs, and even the earlier V6s the CAS is just about a consumable.

Nah, still in NSW. I think I must have updated my profile while I was on holiday. It even says I am still aged 35, which is good, as it has been 4 years now I have been that age.


(Hah, you had to get a pink slip... welcome to the world of NSW motoring! You never had to worry about them in the ACT did you?)
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
13 Apr 2011 8:37am
BarryDawson said...

Mark _australia said...

If the computer is not showing a fault code for a sensor it is fine,


Hi Mark, this is not entirely true. An example is an Oxygen Sensor, also known as a Lambda Sensor or O2 sensor. It generally resides in the front pipe or exhaust manifold and there can be up to four on a late model V8 engine. I have found many of these sensors faulty when there has been no check engine light illuminated on the dash of the vehicle. O2 sensors should be replaced every 100,000kms to ensure correct and efficient operation of the fuel injection system.

Be mindful an engine ECU (Electronic Control Unit) is dumb. It will only illuminate the check engine light if a predetermined set of circumstances occur to illuminate it. If a problem exists in the vehicle that has not been forseen in the programming of the ECU then no check engine light will be illuminated.


These systems are pretty smart, and getting smarter each year.

They may seem simple, but they keep adding more sensors and processing power. They are building on the existing technology, so there are few things that aren't detected by the ECU. New/stricter rules regarding engine emissions are making them more and more efficient.

100,000Kms for an oxygen sensor? What gives it this magical figure? Why not 200,000Kms? If a car did that distance in 5th gear, it would have a very different effect than if it did it in 1st or 2nd gear.

How have they been faulty? Have they been out of range or just stopped working? The ECU should know that they are going out of range and logging a fault code, even though it may not be setting the check engine light. I think (at least on the commodores I have owned) that they can set an error code, but only some of them will set the check engine light.






BarryDawson
BarryDawson
WA
175 posts
WA, 175 posts
13 Apr 2011 10:27am
FormulaNova said...

100,000Kms for an oxygen sensor? What gives it this magical figure? Why not 200,000Kms? If a car did that distance in 5th gear, it would have a very different effect than if it did it in 1st or 2nd gear.


Are you serious!!! Who does that? If a car did 100,000 to 200,000kms in 1st or 2nd at any speed the last of the problems on the vehicle would be an O2 sensor!!

No wonder qualified people with experience on specific topics usually do not give input on general forums.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
13 Apr 2011 11:08am
BarryDawson said...

FormulaNova said...

100,000Kms for an oxygen sensor? What gives it this magical figure? Why not 200,000Kms? If a car did that distance in 5th gear, it would have a very different effect than if it did it in 1st or 2nd gear.


Are you serious!!! Who does that? If a car did 100,000 to 200,000kms in 1st or 2nd at any speed the last of the problems on the vehicle would be an O2 sensor!!



Sorry, I guess the thought required was too abstract for you...

If a car does a lot of city driving it tends to spend a lot of time in first and second gear. If the same car was used in country driving instead it would spend a lot more time in the higher gears and as a result rev less.

Surely you would agree that this would place a very different load on these two hypothetical cars even though the distance is the same?

So why the arbitrary number of 100,000kms for an oxygen sensor then? Seems too much like a manufacturers made up number to be anywhere close to accurate.



No wonder qualified people with experience on specific topics usually do not give input on general forums.



Why, because these 'qualified' people do not understand the topic enough to give a practical explanation? You must be on shaky ground to be so sensitive about some questions.


siny
siny
NSW
287 posts
NSW, 287 posts
13 Apr 2011 5:48pm
ok my turbo deisel vito is recommended to be serviced every 30 000 km . i think thats to long and might change oil in between say every 10 -20 000.any thoughts
Carantoc
Carantoc
WA
7298 posts
WA, 7298 posts
13 Apr 2011 4:03pm
Latest edition engine with large sump, engine designed for a 4x4 in some other range ?, put into a van?, geared differently?, turboed differently?, engine depowered from the worst of what it was designed for ????

Use the recommended oil, recommended filter, always use good quality diesel (anything sold by any of the major oil companies), drive nice and why wouldn't Mercedes know what they are talking about ?

They can get a formula 1 car around a track for 2 hours, I reckon they can keep your van going to 10 years.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23695 posts
WA, 23695 posts
13 Apr 2011 4:16pm
Maybe they'd also like to sell engine parts?

I'd do it every 15K, like doggie said - $50 extra once a year is cheap insurance
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
13 Apr 2011 4:23pm
Mark _australia said...

Maybe they'd also like to sell engine parts?

I'd do it every 15K, like doggie said - $50 extra once a year is cheap insurance


True that
cranky
cranky
440 posts
440 posts
13 Apr 2011 4:45pm
FormulaNova said...

BarryDawson said...

Mark _australia said...

If the computer is not showing a fault code for a sensor it is fine,


Hi Mark, this is not entirely true. An example is an Oxygen Sensor, also known as a Lambda Sensor or O2 sensor. It generally resides in the front pipe or exhaust manifold and there can be up to four on a late model V8 engine. I have found many of these sensors faulty when there has been no check engine light illuminated on the dash of the vehicle. O2 sensors should be replaced every 100,000kms to ensure correct and efficient operation of the fuel injection system.

Be mindful an engine ECU (Electronic Control Unit) is dumb. It will only illuminate the check engine light if a predetermined set of circumstances occur to illuminate it. If a problem exists in the vehicle that has not been forseen in the programming of the ECU then no check engine light will be illuminated.




How have they been faulty? Have they been out of range or just stopped working? The ECU should know that they are going out of range and logging a fault code, even though it may not be setting the check engine light. I think (at least on the commodores I have owned) that they can set an error code, but only some of them will set the check engine light.




I'm guessing out of range, I've seen plenty of sensors out of range only to find the new part similarly out of range yet work fine, makes diagnostics difficult.


Carantoc
Carantoc
WA
7298 posts
WA, 7298 posts
13 Apr 2011 5:41pm
siny said...

ok my turbo deisel vito is recommended to be serviced every 30 000 km . i think thats to long and might change oil in between say every 10 -20 000.any thoughts


Don't forget to get new tyres every 2 years as well.

Tyre manufactures tell you tyres are no good in UV after 4 or five years.

So, like the oil, be safe and get a new set of tyres every two years.

better to spend $1,000 on new tyres than have one crack and pop at 100kmph.

subasurf
subasurf
WA
2154 posts
WA, 2154 posts
13 Apr 2011 6:26pm
Carantoc said...

better to spend $1,000 on new tyres than have one crack and pop at 100kmph.




Bah. I blew my tire on the freeway at 110 driving a 1973 Land Rover with no power steering and very shoddy brakes. I managed okay

Ah good times.
BarryDawson
BarryDawson
WA
175 posts
WA, 175 posts
13 Apr 2011 7:08pm
FormulaNova said...
Sorry, I guess the thought required was too abstract for you....

If a car does a lot of city driving it tends to spend a lot of time in first and second gear. If the same car was used in country driving instead it would spend a lot more time in the higher gears and as a result rev less.


Normally in traffic situations an average driver would change gears in traffic keeping engine revs to somewhere between 1500 to 2500 rpm. As it would happen, sitting at 110kph or thereabouts most vehicles will sit on or about 2000 to 2500 rpm therefore you could draw the conclusion that this should not make much difference at all. Further, should the cooling system be in good condition the operating temperature should also be in range and also make very little difference at all. The only variable I can see would be time, time spent in traffic to do 100,000kms compared to time spent on the open road would be much shorter and therefore the O2 sensor on the open road vehicle will have less running time.

When manufacturers recommend specific intervals for timing belts, O2 sensors, spark plugs, pollen filters, high tension leads, fluids etc etc etc it is based on an average.

It's your car at the end of the day and you chose what to have replaced or ignore. You take the risk on what you leave and if that component doesn't let you down you have had a win. If that component does fail be prepared to replace it and any other components due to consequential damage.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
13 Apr 2011 7:55pm
BarryDawson said...

FormulaNova said...
Sorry, I guess the thought required was too abstract for you....

If a car does a lot of city driving it tends to spend a lot of time in first and second gear. If the same car was used in country driving instead it would spend a lot more time in the higher gears and as a result rev less.


Normally in traffic situations an average driver would change gears in traffic keeping engine revs to somewhere between 1500 to 2500 rpm. As it would happen, sitting at 110kph or thereabouts most vehicles will sit on or about 2000 to 2500 rpm therefore you could draw the conclusion that this should not make much difference at all. Further, should the cooling system be in good condition the operating temperature should also be in range and also make very little difference at all. The only variable I can see would be time, time spent in traffic to do 100,000kms compared to time spent on the open road would be much shorter and therefore the O2 sensor on the open road vehicle will have less running time.

When manufacturers recommend specific intervals for timing belts, O2 sensors, spark plugs, pollen filters, high tension leads, fluids etc etc etc it is based on an average.

It's your car at the end of the day and you chose what to have replaced or ignore. You take the risk on what you leave and if that component doesn't let you down you have had a win. If that component does fail be prepared to replace it and any other components due to consequential damage.


I agree, but I think some things are hard to determine if they really need to be changed, unless it is the ECU that tells you. I hope that these days an oxygen sensor can be tested by the ECU to see if they are in range. I think there are even ways to tell if your leads (if you still have them) and plugs are running properly by measuring the current taken to fire them.

I had a manual VN commodore and I remember that it would trigger the check engine light every now and then when going on a really long cruise on the freeway in 5th gear. It did it because it figured that it had been running really lean for too long and assumed that there was something out of whack. If they can do that on a 1989 model car, I hope that they are now able to pick up on a sensor that starts to fail.

After all, if you have 4 sensors, you have a good chance on picking up if one of them is out of range to the others, even if they are all on different manifolds.

Timing belts are a very different story. A lot of engines now are interference designs, so when the belt lets go, you have an expensive fix on your hands. I think Holden got caught with a model of theirs when the belts were letting go earlier than expected so they reduced the service interval. I think a few of these engines require major work to replace the belt, so you wonder if they really thought that through.

I do get worried though that some newer cars appear to need to be babied so much, yet a car that was made 30 years ago seems to run despite the owners lack of maintenance. I know there is a huge difference between the quality between then and now, but why does a car need to be serviced every 5000km? Unless a timing belt is showing major damage, you would never know if it was just about to break or if it would last another 100,000kms. A regular service is not going to prevent that breakage, although not replacing it at its scheduled interval would be flirting with danger.

Having said all this, I am the sort of person that when I get a faulty radiator, I replace all the hoses at the same time. It doesn't take that much extra time or money and I see it as insurance against a failure later on.


Bluedog76
Bluedog76
249 posts
249 posts
13 Apr 2011 8:55pm
I drove one of my cars for the first time in 6 months - running great prior to this period. It had been turned over weekly and had the odd run around but that was it. When I drove it the other day it was running rough and due for a 6 monthly service. The difference was huge post service.
GPA
GPA
WA
2529 posts
GPA GPA
WA, 2529 posts
13 Apr 2011 10:55pm
Bluedog76 said...

I drove one of my cars for the first time in 6 months - running great prior to this period. It had been turned over weekly and had the odd run around but that was it. When I drove it the other day it was running rough and due for a 6 monthly service. The difference was huge post service.


Was it a newish low mileage car, or an old warhorse that had seen better days?
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