Captn Scooby said...

Bender you make some good points, and I agree that bikes of any kind don't belong on footpaths.

I'm about to have a go at some of the points you raised, but I'm not having a go at you. These points seem to be raised by most cycling enthusiasts that I meet (apart from the windsurfing comparison)

It is very dangerous riding on a cycle way as the leasure cyclist just cruises along at 15km/hr. This in its self is a way more dangerous that riding on the road.

Lycra-clad cyclists seem to have a skewed appetite for risk. If you were given the choice of potentially colliding with a mass of 90kg travelling at 15km/hr, vs 1500kg travelling at 60km/hr.. honestly which do you think would cause more damage?

On a cycleway your scenario of colliding with someone at 15km/hr is likely. On a road, with traffic going the same direction in the same lane, it is not as likely to have a collision at that speed differential.

Cycleways are pretty narrow and usually have traffic going both ways, and normally have pedestrians walking on both sides. Not many roads have this arrangement.

I am sure you wouldn't like to be driving around a bend at 50km/hr and seeing another car stopped or heading towards you at 50km/hr in your lane. Would you?

Its the same as you or me speed sailng through the a class of begginers leaning to windsurf.

I agree. If I were out blasting around and doing speed runs, I'd go around the beginners, or abort the run if I saw someone about to get in the way. Much like a cyclist travelling on his/her speed gear at 30km/hr could easily choose to slow down / go around the slow pokes on the pupose-built cycle paths.

Cycleways are congested easily when there are pedestrians and other cyclists on them, and often there is no way around on either side of the cycleway. With road tyres, this is not often practical either.

So, you are sailing that a cyclist can easily choose to slow down and go around slow pokes, yet a car shouldn't have to slow down and go around slow pokes? Hmmm...

Cyclists need to be treated the same as a slow moving vehicle.

I disagree. I'd say that, like other posters have already mentioned, cyclists need to show more respect to other road users, pedestrians and for the rules of the road.

Agreed. A lot of motorists need to too. Unfortunately the idiot motorist is more of a danger than the idiot cyclist.

If cyclists want to be treated the same as a 'slow moving' vehicle then they should be prepared to pay for CTP insurance, and undertake a licensing test to demonstrate that they understand the rules of the road. If they get caught breaking those rules then they should be fined and have demerit points recorded against their licence, just like any other road user.

I am a cyclist. I do have liability insurance. I do have a license and follow the rules of the road. If I get caught doing anything wrong, I am sure I will get fined, and as far as I know they can give you demerit points against your license, although I will probably never find out.

<snip>

Granted some cyclists aren't road hogs and do move over when they hear vehicles approach from behind, they know and follow the rules of the road but unfortunately these appear to be the blessed few and exceptions to the norm.

I think like a lot of things you tend to remember the ones that stand out and ignore/forget the ones that don't.

For the record I dislike Perth drivers equally as much as Perth cyclists (generalising of course), but that's another topic all on it's own

Perth drivers? They seem relaxed and considerate compared to driving in Sydney.

Going back to:

"Lycra-clad cyclists seem to have a skewed appetite for risk."

I think it is like any sport where there is normally a risk. I know a lot of people can't believe that we happily go out in windy conditions into the ocean full of sharks and love it! We don't really expect to get in trouble though do we?

If we did, we would all be sitting on our lounge chairs using the internet.. D'oh

Captn Scooby said...

If only there more responsible and considerate cyclists were like Poor Reli

I also refuse to wear Lycra. Which (looking at my knurries) is very responsible.

true.....lycra transforms a normal man into.... superspanker

Hey we're not all tour de cafe riders!! I have no desires to ride competitively and didn't watch any of the TDU. I ride to and from work, partly because i want to stay healthy, partly because I'm concerned for the environment, but mostly because I enjoy it!

I obey ALL of the road rules and touch wood, so far haven't experienced any agro from motorists. As I said previously I wear knicks because they're padded and a riding jersy because it has really convenient pockets on the back. I've tried wearing sports shorts, but because I live in the hills when I go downhill at speed they turn into parachutes and nearly flap my balls off. Knicks are just more comfortable when riding, thats all!

I don't drink lattes and if you don't like how I look, then look elsewhere!

Nebs what you may not realise is that most cyclists that are serious enough to get kitted out with lyra andspend big $'s on a bike travel quite fast approx 30km/hr. It is very dangerous riding on a cycle way as the leasure cyclist just cruises along at 15km/hr. This in its self is a way more dangerous that riding on the road.

I love that argument cyclists have it cracks me up every time i hear it.......
They don’t like being inconvenienced by slow moving cyclists or traffic on BIKE paths so they ride on the road.....
WHAT THE CRAP DO U THINK U ARE TO CARS WHEN YOU ARE ON THE ROAD!!!!!

Slow moving!

And if you are going to illegally undertake cars while they are at the lights at least run the red light so you can clear out, so we dont have to over take you every 500m.

"Fed up with stupid cyclists not using the adjacent bike path, Nebbian took the only sensible option."

It seems that the aggro goes both ways.. I was driving to a mates place, overtook a 'mob' of lycra clad cafe tourists going up a hill. They were doing whatever speed, maybe 30-35km, and I was travelling at the marked speed limit - 50km/hr.

I came to an intersection where I needed to turn left, taking me across the path of the cyclists. Knowing that there were cyclists not far behind me, and that as I braked, and turned they would be right there, I took what I thought was a civilised and courteous action. I indicated, moved left (so as not to obstruct other cars using the road), leaving plenty of room between me and the kerb (I estimate at least 2 m) and stopped.

My thinking was that without deviating from their current course, the cyclists could see that I was intending to turn left, had courteously stopped to let them through, and could simply carry on with their ride.

Of course not. Unfortunately we had a couple of windows down, and had to listen to the stream of abuse that several of them threw our way as they passed. "What the f**k are you doing you f**ing stupid a**ehole" etc. etc. etc.

Umm.. just trying NOT to knock you and all your mates off your bikes???

I'm sure not all cyclists are arrogant nobs, but as is always the case, it's the few that ruin it for the rest.

Seems pretty obvious to me.. ~100kg of bike, lycra and rider vs at least a tonne of steel and passengers?

I'd be riding defensively rather than offensively!

mkseven said...


A good cyclist will travel at around 50km/h on the flat, you want to ride at 30km/h use a cycleway as you are hazardous to road users. Look at the picture, no mums pushing prams- cyclist has a reasonably good view of whats coming up.

Would you really want to have cyclists travelling at 'only 30km/h' coming around a blind corner and knocking over some old people or some kids? The bike lane in the picture is not typical where I live, but that road is pretty straight too and IMHO not a real hazard for a bike to use.

I must be an excellent motorist as I don't seem to find a slow moving bike on a straight, lightly-loaded road to be a hazard.

What makes me laugh about the arguments cyclists always use is that it is if bikes do not have brakes fitted anymore, and you couldn't possibly think of using them to avoid an accident- loosing speed must be a sin.

I don't think this is an argument I would use, I'm happy to slow down to avoid potential damage to myself.

On the other hand have you seen how ineffective the braking on bikes is? Nowhere near as good as a car. I saw a woman on a group bike ride that didn't realise this, and tried to enter a roundabout without seeing the car that was already on there. She braked hard, but just about hit the car as the back wheel locked up and slid. I guess this shows you how much the behavior of a cyclist can vary so much between individuals.

To further the argument look at differences in speed. At most cyclist using bikeway at 30k's encounters another cyclist travelling opposite direction at that speed so 60ks difference.

Have you looked at many cycleways lately? They usually aren't big open wide paths with plenty of visibility up ahead; well at least not around here anyway. They tend to put them anywhere they can fit them and catering for people moving at more than 6km/h doesn't seem to be a priority. In your example a cyclist on a bike path is much closer to an oncoming cyclists with a closing speed of 60km/h.

On a road they are very unlikely to get a car coming for them on the wrong side of the road. Sure, it can happen, but what are the odds?

Assuming in that pic that it could be like many similar areas here it would be an 80 zone, nebs as to allow cyclist distance and consider cars travelling in opposite direction at 80... 160k's difference, I know if something went wrong (car travelling opposite looses control) which way i'd be heading- bye bye cyclist.

Man, I hope I am not even a pedestrian near you when you make this decision. You actually think you would make this decision with that outcome? What about if you are driving along a road at 50km/h with lots of pedestrians on the footpath and a car comes at you out of control? You have the choice of wiping out lots of pedestrians or getting your car smashed up. What do you choose?

I admit I used to ride road bikes but we always had respect for traffic, even in races it would only be 2 deep where a bike is overtaking and we had a support car warning of the traffic hazard. I have no respect for the chicken legged, latte drinking, lycra clad, metrosexual, social exercisers that call themselves cyclists who buy flash road bikes to compare c*** size and make their ride easer. Personally when I took my mountain bike out which could easily match many of these pansys, I'd prefer to use cycleways anyway.

So why are you so caught up in 'their' choice of sport?

555 said...

It seems that the aggro goes both ways.. I was driving to a mates place, overtook a 'mob' of lycra clad cafe tourists going up a hill. They were doing whatever speed, maybe 30-35km, and I was travelling at the marked speed limit - 50km/hr.

I came to an intersection where I needed to turn left, taking me across the path of the cyclists. Knowing that there were cyclists not far behind me, and that as I braked, and turned they would be right there, I took what I thought was a civilised and courteous action. I indicated, moved left (so as not to obstruct other cars using the road), leaving plenty of room between me and the kerb (I estimate at least 2 m) and stopped.

I'm definitely not here to justify every other cyclist, and I would agree that this situation puts you in a bit of a dilemma. You tried to do the right thing, it's just that it wouldn't have been easy to tell what you intended to do.

If you were sitting there without the indicator on, they would probably assume you were an idiot that just decided to stop there (don't laugh, people do strange things on the road) or that you could be turning.

If you were sitting there with your indicator on, they wouldn't know if you were letting them through or if you would suddenly decide to complete the turn oblivious to them.

Don't take it to heart or assume that other riders are like that. Assuming that I read the scenario right, I would have done what I could to go past you on the right and would have slown down a bit just in case you decided to move right. Going around you on the left would be too dangerous for me, but I can also imagine other riders would have done it without a second thought.

My thinking was that without deviating from their current course, the cyclists could see that I was intending to turn left, had courteously stopped to let them through, and could simply carry on with their ride.

Of course not. Unfortunately we had a couple of windows down, and had to listen to the stream of abuse that several of them threw our way as they passed. "What the f**k are you doing you f**ing stupid a**ehole" etc. etc. etc.

Umm.. just trying NOT to knock you and all your mates off your bikes???

I'm sure not all cyclists are arrogant nobs, but as is always the case, it's the few that ruin it for the rest.

Seems pretty obvious to me.. ~100kg of bike, lycra and rider vs at least a tonne of steel and passengers?

I'd be riding defensively rather than offensively!

Thanks for thinking about it though. We need more people like you on the road, and on bikes too.

FormulaNova said...

You tried to do the right thing, it's just that it wouldn't have been easy to tell what you intended to do.

Well, I did have the indicator on, had completely stopped, and my foot on the brake (so brake lights on), and I was looking back at the cyclists. Not much more I could do really..

Interestingly, every last one of the cyclists chose to ride to the left of me.

Perhaps, if I had been more familiar with that particular road I may have chosen to slow down and drop in behind the cyclists. As it was, I was looking for the street as I drove along and didn't have the opportunity to anticipate the turn to that degree. Some people just can't seem to help themselves when it comes to venting!

Don't worry, I haven't taken it to heart - I just figure that there are nobs everywhere, and that's no reason for me not to be courteous to other road users just on the off chance that they are one of the nobs.

I think the tour to caffe riders shave their legs because they are in transition on the way to turning into females or easing into letting every one know their gay instead of just coming out of the closet.

SmellySkater said...

I think the tour to caffe riders shave their legs because they are in transition on the way to turning into females or easing into letting every one know their gay instead of just coming out of the closet.

I wonder how you came to learn this bit of information. Was there a 'crying game' incident that you want to tell us about?

nebbian said...

This guy was clearly way too good to ride 1 metre to the left, he was doing all of 15km/h uphill.

And check out the nice cycle path. Clean, wide and free from dirt and rubbish.
How did that cycle path get there? Maybe tax payers money? Im sure he pays his tax? How did the road get there? Maybe from people paying their rego? Thats why all bikes should be registered if they want to share the road.

nebbian said...

This guy was clearly way too good to ride 1 metre to the left, he was doing all of 15km/h uphill. I certainly couldn't have kept up that blistering pace on a pushie.

Are you guys short on wind over there at the moment too? If only we had some more decent noreasters over here... Nebbian, are you that bored that you are following cyclists around WA in a car with a camera on your lap looking for problems that aren't there?

If anything, that photo tells me that someone did a bad job of planning a road. Why is all that space in the centre wasted? Is it for parking or something? I think that this road is a pretty poor way to do things. If there was a decent verge and enough room for cars to get past with no problems then it would be a non issue. Bikes could happily travel along further to the left and any cars could easily get past.

I have to admit that I don't know the current rules on using footpaths for bikes over here (NSW). At one stage you weren't allowed to use them, and then they allowed you to use them but only if you were under 14 years old. I think after that they then said you could use them but had to be in the company of someone younger. I think after that they might have just said something like 'where reasonable'?

For you guys that think what this rider is doing is unreasonable, then try riding a road bike in the same area and you might understand why he is riding where he is. For what its worth I think that path is a footpath and I probably wouldn't waste my time riding on it on a road bike either.

For some reason I thought most windsurfers would be a bit more open-minded about other people doing sports and getting out there and exercising. As someone else has already mentioned, jet skis are registered, whereas we are not. Does that mean that we should not be out there enjoying ourselves?

Some cyclists are fine, some are definately not and think they are so holy.

Here in the ACT the government is turning some double lane roads into single lane, so there can be a huge cycle lane, phuch that!! They dont pay rego, and worse, there are purpose built cycle paths 2 metres away. So now thousands of cars are squashed into single lane and the odd cyclist now and then uses the bike lane or bike path. Stupid.

Its pure physics, bikes and cars dont mix.